The Lord's prayer, why JW's never say it

by moomanchu 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • moomanchu
    moomanchu

    We all know it's not an issue if people say the Lord's prayer or not, but except for the fact that JW's make it an issue. To them it's kinda like the boogie man and to say it makes you part of christendom, ripe for destruction.

    This thread is in response to another thread.I finally took some time to look into information to make a reply.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/130602/2.ashx

    A JW commented on that thread

    Matthew 6:7 starts by saying, "But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, ..." That's just 2 verses before he gives begins to outline some key and acceptable elements in a prayer.

    I was simply responding to moomanchu directly above my last post. Many millions do repeat the "Our Father", or "Lord's Prayer", believing that the words themselves are important; in reality, Jesus was stressing thoughts and priorities, rather than an exact "magic-like" formula.

    In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the way churches use the Lords prayer, in fact I think they are correct for using it and the witnesses are wrong for not using it. .

    It all comes down to Matthew 6:7

    New World Translation

    But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again,* just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for there use of many words. footnote: *Or, "do not babble words; do not utter empty repetitions."

    NIV

    And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like the pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their of many words.

    footnote: babbling like pagans. They use long lists of the names of their Gods in their prayers, hoping that by constantly repeating them they will call on the name of the God that could help them.

    NAS

    And when you are praying, do not use meaning less repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

    The command not to "keep on babbling like the pagans" has obvious consequences upon this discussion. The Greek work translated as, "keep on babbling," is the verb "battalogeo." (This is, of course, a transliteration of the Greek.) This is the only occurrence of the word in the New Testament. We have to break it down in order to translate it. The verb "logeo" means "to speak." The prefix, "batta," is not a word. Good scholarship demonstrates that it is an onomatopoeia … something we learned about in grade school. For example, we say that a cannon goes "boom," or a machine gun goes, "rat-tat-tat," or a bee goes "buzz." The onomatopoeia is an action that is being sounded out. In this case, "battalogeo" means, literally, "say ‘batta’" in a repetitive fashion. Jesus is literally saying, "And when you pray, do not keep on saying "batta, batta, batta…" like the pagans do. It seems absolutely clear to me that this is a prohibition of repetitive, unspoken, unknown language in prayer … the very thing that people who claim the "gift" of a "private prayer language" practice in their devotional lives.

    Some will try to dismiss this understanding of the word, "battalogeo," focusing instead upon the translators and commentators who hone in on the issue of "repetition." They claim that this is an indictment of repetitive prayer. But did not our Lord pray in the Garden of Gethsemane that "this cup" might pass from him … three times. It is not simply a reference to repetition. Jesus is talking about simply "making noise" when we pray.

    Then, notice the words that follow. They are often referred to as "The Lord’s Prayer." Jesus instructs his disciples to speak, in their own language, words of reverence, request, repentance, and guidance directly to God. His instructions are crystal clear. This is how He wanted his disciples to pray, with no mention whatsoever of any mysterious, unknown language.

    And think about the many other examples of prayer in the Bible. How did Jesus pray from the cross? Did he cry out in unintelligible speech? No. He spoke in his native Aramaic. How did Jesus pray in the garden? By using spoken, intelligible language. Indeed, I challenge any reader to find a single incident of the exercise of a "private prayer language" in the Scriptures.

    Another good explanation:

    The warning is against meaningless repetition, not against meaningful repetition. Jesus himself prescribes a prayer for repetition (the Lord's Prayer) and, in practicing Jewish liturgical prayer (for example the Passover liturgy), made use of repetitive prayer. Jesus warning is aimed at reminding people that our prayers are not magical and that we don't somehow muscle the Almighty into cooperating with us by talking him to death or using just the right magical formula. It is not aimed at the use of repetition in meditative or liturgical prayer. So-called "spontaneous" prayer can be quite empty and liturgical prayer can be quite full. The goal is full prayer, not mere avoidance of repetition.

  • Sasha
    Sasha

    It was meant to be a "model" prayer...

  • Junction-Guy
    Junction-Guy

    Wow it's is so phenomenal the lengths the WT Society has gone to in order to twist the bible, The difference in the readings between the NWT and these other bibles, shows how the JW's can twist things in order to separate themselves from the churches.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Excellent points moomanchu.

    From Matthew's perspective it might be directed atthe practice of ecstatic prayer (in "tongues," for instance) as attested in the Hellenistic, partly Gentile, communities (e.g. Corinth). As do other Matthean criticisms of "charismatic" Christianity, e.g. 7:21ff (prophecy, exorcism, miracles, but no Law observance).

    Interestingly the Didachè attests to an early (probably late 1st- or very early 2nd-century) practice of praying the "Lord's prayer" regularly, Chapter 8 directly parallels Matthew 6:

    But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:

    Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..

    Pray this three times each day.

    Many "free-church" Evangelical Christians have a similar problem with saying the Lord's prayer (because "it sounds Catholic"). At one time I used to attend a Spanish-speaking (mostly Latino-American) church and I once preached about the "Lord's prayer" which they would never say (although they used to have Bible passages read aloud by the assembly, including Psalms which are prayers, and they would say "Amen" at the end). After the sermon, I told them: "well, as we have now discussed it, could we say it, just for once?" It came as a huge surprise, but they did...

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    I always wondered about that. It is certainly a nicer prayer than the repetitious drivel that served for prayers in the KH. Some of which were quite long and meandering, just the thing the scripture was recommending against.

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    I have to agree with Sasha. It is a "model prayer." And as such it wasn't meant to be used as some sort of Christian mantra. Rather, it was given as an example. Better still is the advice "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the syngogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen." (Matthew 6:5,6) This could apply to both Jehovah's Witnesses and members of the various Christian churches.

  • Who are you?
    Who are you?
    The warning is against meaningless repetition, not against meaningful repetition.

    Cool topic moomanchu! I think the first word "Our" shows that this example is directed toward a group of people in prayer in public, as opposed to an individual privately.

    So instead of having some shmo drone on for ten minutes about their particular sect or his/her personal ideas of how God should direct his energy, it gives a "model prayer" that is short and to the point.

    It works for dinner gatherings and it works for groups consisting of mixed religions.

    It is a model prayer to be used.

    Why JW's are directed to stay away from it like the plague, is because is leaves no room for pontificating about the WTS.

  • GentlyFeral
    GentlyFeral

    footnote: babbling like pagans. They use long lists of the names of their Gods in their prayers, hoping that by constantly repeating them they will call on the name of the God that could help them.
    I've noticed this tendency among the Witnesses, too – multiple titles for God – but let's cut them a little slack.

    To quote a Baptist gentleman who was offering prayer at the top of his lungs during a lively church service, "if I pray loud, Father, it's not because I think you're hard of hearing; it's because of the way you make me feel."

    gently feral

  • Hannah
    Hannah
    It is certainly a nicer prayer than the repetitious drivel that served for prayers in the KH. Some of which were quite long and meandering

    Yes, going on and on about all the wonderful provisions from the faithful and discreet slave and the WTS. I'm sorry, but where does Jesus mention that in his model prayer?

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Public Talk # 86, 8/85 PRAYERS THAT ARE HEARD BY GOD.

    THE SUB - HEADINGS FOLLOW.

    PEOPLE OF ALL RELIGIONS PRAY

    NEED TO BE DIRECTED TO THE TRUE GOD BY CHRIST, WITH PROPER MOTIVE

    PRAYERS MUST BE FOR THE RIGHT THINGS AND BE SPECIFIC

    TO SHOW SINCERITY, CONSISTENCY, MUST WORK AT WHAT WE PRAY FOR

    MEANS THAT JEHOVAH USES TO ANSWER PRAYERS

    PRAYERS OF FAITH ASSURED OF DIVINE ATTENTION

    THIS OUTLINE TELLS JEHOVAHS WITNESSES HOW TO PRAY. WHY IT'S CALLED A PUBLIC TALK BEATS ME.

    SO, THE RANK AND FILE HAVE A GUIDE - LINE ON WHAT AND WHAT NOT AND HOW AND HOW NOT TO PRAY FROM THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY. WHERE IS JESUS?

    BLUEBLADES

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit