MORE DRIVEL FROM APRIL 15TH WT STUDY.....

by Mary 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mary
    Mary

    SirNose86 said: While it is true that each Christian should have a personal relationship with God, we cannot deny that he is using a worldwide congregation, as he did in the apostles' day.

    Did you catch that? The WT was all set to examine the reasonableness of leaving for those three reasons, but they didn't! Instead, their only response to those conditions was, "We have a congregation that God is using"--which they cannot prove (and is another subject entirely)--"so your logical reasons for trying to leave are irrelevant."

    Yep. I also found it interesting that they did not deal with the issues at hand, as per usual. They did not mention any specific reasons as to why someone would have a legitimate reason for leaving the Organization, such as pedophilia, drudgery, or false prophecying. They won't admit that they have major problems that need to be dealt with, yet they gleefully point out all the problems with other religions and say 'this is why people are abandoning the churches!'

    As per usual, they simply shift the entire blame to those who have left or are contemplating leaving. It reminds me of the assembly in 1976, where Freddie Franz pointed a finger at the audience and said "Armageddon didn't come because YOU were expecting it!" and "anyone who is disappointed that Armageddon didn't come in '75 should just go and sit under a tree and cry!" Well, they're finally reaping what they've sowed. The numbers of those who are leaving is only going to increase, not decrease and they're only fooling themselves if they think stupid articles like this is going to stem the tide.

  • zack
    zack

    Mary,

    Great posts. Thanks for your insights.

    People like us care more for JW sheep than the JW shepherds. They will never admit to being wrong about anything. They will

    continue to pummel the flock. I am so much happier now that I SEE all this. Thanks.

  • codeblue
    codeblue

    Mary: excellent thread

    It's good because I have 2 adult children that are still JW's and if I never hear from them again I will surely know why. (I haven't heard from them in months as it is)

    Big Tex: I loved your post. My sentiments as well. IF an organization is so vital why would it take thousands of years for one to "pop up"? And if the nation of Israel can lose God's favor, anyone can. The point about having your own personal relationship with Jehovah would be even MORE important during those times because as they say: it's just between you and God anyway. Looks like the WTBS is taking Jehovah out of the picture by stating the only way to Jehovah is thru the WTBS. How presumptuous? Their emphasis is on having a relationship with the WTBS..............this is not what Romans 14: 10-12 says.

    Making blanket statements without scriptural support carries no weight with a true Christian.

    Codeblue

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Of course, this is the cult mentality.

    The WTS will never take responsibility for what it teaches, never. The must allways shift the blame of everything to the individual, leaving no responsiblity to the organizaiton.

    Sad to think that no matter how well or how poorly the WTS does things it is allways up to you to submit every step of the way.

  • LeslieV
    LeslieV

    That is exactly what I got out of that article MVR was that as long as your group began an Elder and MS arragement it must be sanctioned by Jehovah. Looks good to me..Who wants to be an Elder and MS???? We can begin our own sanctined religion by God. Geee they are really dumb. The sad thing is no rank and file pub is allowed any critical thinking skills to even understand what is being said by the GB.

    Leslie

  • bennyk
    bennyk
    The individual might go off on his own or be associating with just a few others, but where is the arrangement for congregation elders and the provision of ministerial servants?

    Are Elders really necessary? I distinctly remember something else in the Proclaimers book (p. 53):

    It took real courage in those days to withdraw from one's church. [...] But she stood firm, even though there was no congregation of Bible Students nearby. As her son later described her situation: "no study servant [elder] to lean on. No meetings. A contrite heart. A worn Bible. Long prayerful hours." (bracket in original)

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    I find it pathetic that they are still trying to tell you what you must believe when they say "we cannot deny that he is using a worldwide congregation as he did in the apostle's day". There is (naturally) no scriptural reference given to back this claim up, but you have to accept it anyway because we said so. I love how they're always comparing themselves to the first century congregation, yet there is no biblical reference to the first century Christians having to meet 5 times a week, or go out banging on doors on the Sabbath, or keep tract of how many scrolls they placed. There's no evidence that any brother who had a beard couldn't be an elder or MS......I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture. There's virtually nothing similar between those who met 2,000 years in private homes and the WTB&TS today.

    Yep, same old, same old!

    My two cents' worth on this:

    It seems to me that the WTS (and many ex-dubs) fail to appreciate or even understand that the New Testament was written to a different culture at a different time. This is not to dilute the importance of the Bible to Christians but it needs to be remembered that when we read the words of, say, the apostle Paul, we need first of all to determine the context. ("Words taken out of context are no pretext".) Paul is often criticised as a mysogynist simple because his writings are being interpreted in a 21st century context. The WTS then is fond of speaking about there being elders and ministerial servants in each congregation. Of course, the congregations in the first century were nothing like the WTS model that is seen today, but rather, as Mary rightly points out, they met in small house churches with meetings much, much different to those of JWs at their KHs. They met together for the breaking of bread and singing of psalms and songs and prayer, not for a public speaking school, an evangelising meeting, a public lecture and a paragraph by paragraph Q&A of "The Watchtower" magazine.

    we cannot deny that he is using a worldwide congregation

    The WTS are very fond of claiming that God must have an organisation today because He's always had one and He had one in the first century with the early christian church. But there's no similarity between the early christian church and the multi-million member corporate organisation known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Indeed, the model of the first-century church is very difficult to apply in a modern setting; I've seen it tried and it failed. Large denominations have arisen over the centuries for various reasons - the important thing to remember though is that they are united in that they all name Christ as Saviour. True, there could (should?) be more unity but there's nothing in scripture to indicate that christians will only be found as members of one organisation; indeed, the scriptures indicate that Christ calls his own and they know his voice.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with Christians meeting to discuss scriptural matters and it is encouraged that Christians do so. However, it is insane and scripturally dishonest to imply that those who aren't attending all the meetings are somehow inferior to those that do.

    Nevertheless it is only natural that christians will want to fellowship with other christians and by doing so are "building up the body of Christ"; but not does it mean that we have to attend only Anglican churches if we are usually Anglican, Presbyterian if we are regularly Presbyterian, and so on. It simply means the fellowshipping with other believers wherever they are. We probably remember the text we used to recite as Dubs: "not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together" - meeting with other christians, not JWs only!!

    didnt' Jesus say " . . .For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.. . .(Matthew 18:20) ??

    Yep, he did, but here again the WTS takes it out of context. They should read the preceding verse (verse 19) "Again, I tell you that if two of you on agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven".

    Then it goes on :"For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." So what was the gathering? It was for prayer, not a meeting like at the KH!

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Big Tex:

    I remember, back in the late 80's when I was exiting, I talked with several elders about this point. I wanted to know what organization Jehovah used after the first century until 1919 (when Jehovah magically decided the International Bible Students were "it"). I wanted to know what organization Jehovah used before the nation of Israel (talking several thousands of years here).

    I was told it was the Roman catholic church - it wasn't until 1914 when they were rejected, that the Bible Students were chosen as their replacement.

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586
    They did not mention any specific reasons as to why someone would have a legitimate reason for leaving the Organization, such as pedophilia, drudgery, or false prophecying. They won't admit that they have major problems that need to be dealt with, yet they gleefully point out all the problems with other religions and say 'this is why people are abandoning the churches!'

    As per usual, they simply shift the entire blame to those who have left or are contemplating leaving. It reminds me of the assembly in 1976, where Freddie Franz pointed a finger at the audience and said "Armageddon didn't come because YOU were expecting it!" and "anyone who is disappointed that Armageddon didn't come in '75 should just go and sit under a tree and cry!"

    Of course they can't mention those problems, they can't have people talking about it who aren't aware of it! There are three good ways that the Borg can squelch talk of scandals from spreading: the elders, if competent enough, can prevent other flock members from finding out about disturbing conditions within the congregation. Also, people close to such problems are trained to keep quiet. Thirdly, everyone is trained not to research scandals online. The end result is that--and I'll take child abuse as an example--if there isn't a problem in your hall with child abuse, you will have the idea that such a thing could never happen in da troof! The Borg has done an excellent job in isolating problems and preventing the r&f from learning about scandals.

    Case in point, I was talking with a pioneer kid in my bookstudy. We were on the subject of things that could affect the churches. I let slip that the WT has to worry about lawsuits.

    "Lawsuits?" she asked, as if she had never heard of such a thing.

    "Oh yes, lawsuits about child abuse issues, and blood issues." I immediately realised that I might have said too much. She just kind of sat there for a second.

    "Blood issues, huh?" she said.

    "Yeah, you know..." I chuckled. Good thing she didn't ask for clarification on the child abuse lawsuits. As a sheltered pioneer kid, it's something she would've never heard about.

    Now about Freddy--he REALLY said it like that in '76?? Wow, talk about literally blaming the rank & file!

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