For Princess and any others curious

by Rex B13 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    This is strictly for those who want to know how to become saved. You will not even truly have the desire to unless you are called by the Father.

    NIV Romans 3:22-24
    22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    So, all are sinners and fall short of God's glory, which means eternal separation from Him. But just what is this grace, justification and redemption?

    NIV Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Death is usually pictured as hell or eternal separation from God. It is not just a physical death as some would have you believe. How is it that we recieve this gift of eternal life?

    NIV Romans 10:9-10
    9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

    Is this really all that it takes to gain eternal life?

    NIV John 3:15-17
    15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
    16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    Do we really believe on Christ if we dismiss Him as some arch-angel who is less than God? Think about it. Did you know that the reason that believers were called 'Christians' is because they WORSHIP Christ as God? (Phil. 2.6-11; Heb. 1.1-10)
    Is Jesus really the only way to life?

    NIV John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Anyone can gain salvation, all they have to do is ask Jesus with heartfelt prayer!

    NIV Revelation 3:20
    20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

    Can we be saved by our own works, even in some future era as some speculate?

    NIV Titus 3:5-7
    5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth (being 'born again' -John 3.3, or as a 'new creation' )and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
    6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

    NIV Ephesians 2:4-10
    4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
    5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead (eternally dead and separated from God!) in transgressions--it is by grace (undeserved kindness) you have been saved.
    6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
    7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves (NOT from our own works!), it is the gift of God--
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    10 For we are God's workmanship, (a new creation) created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance (predestined) for us to do.

    Our good works are an evidence of our faith and our salvation, they do not gain us salvation as that is by grace! How rich in mercy is our God? Remember the thief on the cross?

    41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
    42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
    43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

    Here is another proof that the soul is immortal, our Lord clearly promised this man 'paradise' (Hebrew understanding of 'heaven' or the afterlife) on that very day that he died! This is not some future event and it is not resurrection (adding the spiritual body to our bodiless souls). "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ".

    Does salvation indicate anywhere that one becomes perfect or will never face hardship? Nope! A Christian will gradually be molded into a more Christ-like person in thought and deed but is no better than anyone else in the world. Humility and thick-skin soon becomes a requirement. I have not been humble here at times but then, I am having a war between the flesh and the Spirit going on. It will continue till I leave this world and arrive in Glory.
    Rex

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit
    I'M SAVED!!! PRAISE THE LORD JEEZ AND HIS DAD..ER..WHATSISNAME....HALLELUYHWH!!!

    Can I be first to crush an unbeliever. Oh to hear their bones crack as I turn the wheels of the rack!

  • Princess
    Princess

    Hi Rex. I read your post. I am curious about the interpretations you added between scriptures. Also, when you say you won't even have the desire to be saved unless called upon by the father, what do you mean? Are we all to believe we are just waiting to be called? Is god watching us and waiting for the perfect moment to call on us? What if we die before he calls? Eternal death?

    What proof do you have to back up the statement that to "fall short of the glory of god" means eternal separation from him? Could this not just mean that we fall short of his glory in that we can never attain his perfection, he is god and we are human?

    You gave no proof that death mentioned in Romans is more than physical.

    As for Jesus telling the man he would be with him in paradise, keep in mind that the punctuation was added after translating. He could just have easily been saying "truly I tell you today, you will be with me..." I realize this is the JW explanation for that scripture and I don't know which way is correct. I personally don't think it matters. My point is, you can't prove it is one way or the other. You have not proven the immortal soul with this scripture.

    Princess

  • Ranchette
    Ranchette

    Ranchette was here but left cause she don't need savin!

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    HI Princess,
    I have traveled a similiar path as you. I had to search some time before I found enlightenment. I was actually trying to disprove the trinity when I found out that it was true. You asked questions that you ask are valid and intelligent. Please do some reading and ask a pastor of a bible teaching church in your area. Above all, pray for God to lead you to truth as I did. Keep praying until you get the answer.

    There is a lot of scriptural research for those of us who have been as mislead as we have been. There is a lot of 'unlearning'to do. ;-)

    Let's start with this:
    http://www.watchman.org/jw/answers.htm Answering Watchtower Objections
    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/t03.html The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman
    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/t10.html The Doctrine of the Trinity
    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Trinity/beckwith.html The Trinity by Francis J Beckwith
    http://www.probe.org/docs/bel-trin.html Why We Should Believe in the Trinity Pat Zuckeran
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/9t8/9t8072.html Writing the Trinity Philip Yancey
    http://www.atlantaapologist.org/Sharp.html A Bicentennial Defense of Granville Sharp's Argument for the Deity of Christ.

    Check the sites out, then go to the library and check out some works by C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity; Screwtape Letters; Miracles).

    From a post to someone else about the immortal soul:

    Systematic Theology is what one learns in Seminary. It is the logical exgesis of sceripture as opposed to single scripture exgesis which can result in alleged 'proof' for practically any unique teaching.

    Let's go over this:
    1.) This separation of body and soul is the almost universal destiny of men. The Scriptures, however, teach that Enoch did not die but "God took him," Gen. 5:24, and that he "was translated that he should not see death," Heb. 11:5; also that Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven," 2 Kings 2:11. Some have supposed that, in like manner Moses escaped death, but it is expressly stated that he died, and was buried in the land of Moab. Deut. 34:5, 6. But Paul declared that at the second coming of the Lord, "we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17. Even more explicitly he said "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51, 52. This is the fashioning anew of "the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory" foretold in Phil. 3:21.

    (2.) The Scriptures, however, teach plainly the continued existence of all men after death.
    (a.) It is everywhere assumed as a fact, neither to be doubted, nor proved; but that will be at once received without question.
    (b.) The cases of Enoch and Elijah gave signal proof of another world than this into which even men might enter. But they furnished no evidence that any other than these two would go thither. They simply showed that the possible existence of men, otherwise than on this earth, has been actually realized in these servants of God. But, so far from thus furnishing conclusive proof of the future life of other men, the fact that these were not removed through death, but by extraordinary means, naturally suggested the possibility that exemption from death is necessary to that life, and that all those who go down to the grave perish together. It was only to those otherwise taught of the continued existence of the soul, that their removal gave confirmatory proof of such immortality. In like manner, we are taught the same truths by the presence of Moses, and Elijah, at the scene of the Transfiguration. The appearance at various times of angels to men furnishes additional proof of another world. The resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ confirm most conclusively the doctrine of a future life.
    (c.) The Scriptures teach, in the account of the creation of man, that his soul did not originate from the dust; but was a direct spiritual creation of God. Gen. 2:7. They make further statements about the difference between soul, and body, confirmatory of the distinction made in their creation. Gen. 25:8; 35:29; Ecc. 12:7; Matt. 10:28; Acts 7:59.
    (d.) They make express reference to the existence of the soul after death. 2 Sam. 12:23; Job 19:25-27. [Conant translates this passage. "But I, I know my Redeemer lives, and in aftertime will stand upon the earth; and after this my skin is destroyed, and without my flesh, I shall see God. Whom I, for myself, shall see, and my eyes behold, and not another, when my reins are consumed within me"]. Matt. 22:32; 25:46; Luke 16:19-31; John 11:25; 2 Cor. 5:1-4.
    (e.) They make known that this future life is the lot of the wicked, as well as of the righteous; teaching that it is one of happiness to the latter, and of condemnation and misery to the former. Matt. 25:46; John 6:47; 12:25; 1 Cor. 15:17-20.
    (f.) They declare the continuance of this, at least until the day of the Resurrection and Final Judgement. Job 21:30; Ecc. 3:17; Luke 14:14; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Thess. 4:13-17.

    The Scriptures are thus seen to teach conclusively the doctrine of an unending future life of all men. This, as has been stated, is what is commonly referred to as the immortality of the soul.
    Before passing from this part of the discussion, special attention is called to the following statements of what is included in this kind of immortality.
    1. Unending existence essentially belongs to spiritual natures. When, therefore, the Scriptures have taught that the soul is a spirit, the way is prepared for the metaphysical argument based upon the simplicity of the soul, and its consequent indestructibility. It is common, therefore, to speak of the natural immortality of the soul. By this is meant, that, because of its nature, it has an unending life. It has no elements of dissolution in it. Life belongs to it, because it is spirit. Just as God has made extension, and divisibility, properties of matter, so, has he made unending life a natural property of the spirit.
    2. But this essential property of spirit must ever be recognized as one conferred upon it. It is because God has so made spirit, that it has unending life. It is not a property that belongs to it from any necessity in God, or out of God. It is the result of his purpose, or will, and of his power. He has made spirit to be thus, Because he has so willed. Doubtless, had he otherwise chosen, the result would have been different. To believe otherwise is to put an unjustifiable limit upon his power, and upon his absolute freedom of will, as to all outward matters. It thus appears that they speak falsely, even blasphemously, who say that God could not destroy, or annihilate spirit, if he should choose. That which prevents annihilation, is that he has not so chosen, and will not so choose.
    The impossibility is not in the lack of power, but in the unchangeableness of his will. This is no imperfection of inability, but the highest perfection of immutability
    The immortality is that which is common to both the righteous and the wicked. The death of the soul, and its life, are set forth in the Word of God as something distinct, not only from that of the body, but even from the unending natural life of the soul. The spiritual death of the soul has been described as something different from natural death, and as constituting the most fearful of the penalties inflicted because of sin. It was there shown that the Scriptures describe it in the various aspects of alienation from God, loss of God's favour, and corruption of the moral nature. The true immortality of the Christian consists in the removal of all these evils, and the bestowment upon him of their corresponding blessings. That this is done, and that this is the condition into which he is thus brought will abundantly appear from the following passages of Scripture. Matt. 10 :39; 16:25 (cf. Mark 8:35); 18:9; (parallel passages, Mark 9:45; Luke 9:24; 17:33; John 12:25); 19:17; John 3:36; 5:24, 40; 6:33, 35, 50-58, 63; 20:31; Rom. 6:4; 8:6, 13; 2 Cor. 3:6; Eph. 4:18; 1 John 3:14; 5:12.
    The contrast in immortality, between the righteous and the wicked, is very marked. "The wicked is thrust down in his evil doing: but the righteous hath hope in his death." Prov. 14:32. "When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish." Prov. 11:7. But "blessed are the dead which die in the Lord;" . . . . "for their works follow with them." Rev. 14:13.
    The happiness of this immortality of the Christian is the greater because it is a state in which he is confirmed forever. The law of this condition, both of the righteous, and the wicked, is laid down in Rev. 22:11. "He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still:and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still:and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still:and he that is holy, let him be made holy still." As the wicked shall not change his state, so shall not the righteous, his. The day of his trial and probation is over, and he stands secure of the bliss of heaven, confirmed by the unfailing promises of God. The scenes, through which he has passed on earth, fill him with no apprehensions that his weakness and insufficiency, will disable him from performing the perfect service of heaven. The recollection of Adam's trial will suggest to him no possibility that he will be subjected to a test which will dissolve forever the bonds which unite him to God. Even the sin of the angels will not alarm him. For he is now assured of that "eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal." Tit. 1:2. This is immortality indeed. This, and not mere continued life, is the life and immortality which he confers, "who abolished death, and brought life and incorruption to light through the gospel." 2 Tim. 1:10.
    THE INTERMEDIATE STATE.
    The Scriptures teach that the soul and body that have been separated in death, will be reunited at the Judgement Day. Meantime, the body crumbles into dust, and appears to be totally destroyed. The spirit has returned unto God who gave it. Ecc. 12:7. Hence, at his martyrdom, we hear the first dying Christian "calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59.
    It is not in accordance with the methods of God in his revelations to man to answer the many inquiries which curiosity might suggest as to this intermediate state of the soul. But much more is taught about it than would at first be imagined. Such facts as are given are valuable to confirm and strengthen faith, and to give consolation. Those may first be mentioned which are common to the righteous and the wicked, and these may be followed by separate statements of the things wherein they differ.
    1. As to those respects in which the condition of the righteous and the wicked is the same.
    (1.) The soul exists without a body. Unquestionably it has not the body which it had on earth. But some have thought that it has some kind of a body, some spiritual body, which merely corresponds to, and is only thus identified with that of this life. But Paul's discussion of the resurrection shows, that the "spiritual" body is one that is to be raised out of the grave in which the natural body was buried, and that it is "at the last trump" that "the dead shall be raised," 1 Cor. 15:44, 52-54.
    Some have argued, that body of some kind is necessary to give location to these spirits. But a spirit may have location without occupying space as a body does.
    (2.) The condition is consequently one of an imperfect life. It is the life of the spirit only, and not that of the man. Human nature is composed of both body and spirit; and his body is as truly a part of a man as is his soul. The condition, therefore, in which disembodied spirits exist, is not that of perfect men, but only of human spirits. This, which is an inference which may be drawn from the two-fold nature of man, is supported by the manner in which the Scriptures refer to the persons in this intermediate state. They are not spoken of as "men," but as "souls," and "spirits." Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4.
    Another proof of this want of perfection of this condition is seen in the fact that the saints attain full entrance into their joy, and the wicked full infliction of their woe, only after the resurrection. Matt. 13:40-43, 49, 50; 25:34, 41, 46; 1 Cor. 15:44-54.
    (3.) Both righteous and wicked have conscious life. This might have been inferred from the nature of spirit, which must always be in a state of conscious existence. But it is a plain teaching of the Bible. Luke 16:22-31. The word "Hades;" here means the place of departed spirits, and, as the scene occurs after the death of Lazarus, and before the final judgement, so must it be assigned to the intermediate state. In this the rich man is represented as in conscious torment.
    The conscious condition of the righteous is taught in 2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 1:21-24; and also in the passages connected with Paradise. Luke 23:42,43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7; 22:2.
    (4.) Neither the righteous nor the wicked are under probation in this intermediate state. Luke 16:22-31; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:11. Even if the language in 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 and 4:6 teaches, as some have taught, that our Lord went to the place of departed spirits, and preached to them; so that to those who had died up to the time of his death was given a probation in the gospel preached to them by him; that would be but a single instance of a favour shown to those who had died before his crucifixion; and, so far from proving a probation beyond the grave, would, from its exceptional character, imply the contrary.
    2. The aspects of the intermediate state peculiar to the righteous.
    (1.) It is a condition of happiness. Paul declared that "to die is gain," and to depart this life far better than to remain in it. Phil. 1:21-24. He wrote to Timothy, looking forward exultingly to the hour of his death. 2 Tim. 4:6-8. He also referred to his longing for this future, as possessed by him in common with his brethren. 2 Cor. 5:1-8. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the happiness of the latter is described by his being in Abraham's bosom. Luke 16:23.
    (2.) It is a condition in which the believer is present with Christ. This is also taught in all the passages referred to in the previous paragraph, except the last; and constitutes in each of them the ground of the happiness which they declare.
    (3.) The believer is also said to be in Paradise. Whatever this may mean, whether only a condition or a place, it is unquestionably true that it is intended to convey the idea of the enjoyment of very great happiness. The passages in which Paradise is mentioned are, Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. That these teach that it is a place can only be denied on the ground that very highly figurative language is used. Only the first of these, however, refers to the presence of Christ with any one, and this contains only his promise to the thief on the cross, "To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." But the location of Paradise, as made known by the Apostle Paul, 2 Cor. 12:1-4, taken in connection with this first passage, makes it more than probable that it is the place where the saints are with Christ. The Scriptures teach that "Christ was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God." Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; Acts 1:11; Acts 2:33, 34; Acts 7:55, 56; Eph. 1:20; Heb. 10:12; 1 Pet. 3:22. We are also taught that he must there remain "until the times of restoration of all things." Acts 3:21. Now, in the account Paul gives of his ecstatic vision in 2 Cor. 12:1-4, he tells us that he was "Caught up even to the third heaven," and "caught up into Paradise," which locates Paradise either in or above the third heaven, or makes the two identical. So also Rev. 2:7, taken in connection with Rev. 22:2 and 21:10-27, states that the tree of life, "which is in the Paradise of God," is "in the midst of the street" of "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God," in which was no temple, "for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof," and is "on either side of the river," which is described as "a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God, and of the Lamb." The place of the abode of the saints is with Christ, who is in the heavens with God. It is to that place that most probably the name Paradise is given in the Scriptures.
    (4.) In that abode the saints are not probably inactive. Some have thought this because their condition is spoken of as one of "rest" and "sleep." But evidently the former of these terms is used simply to declare the end of the toils and labours of this life, and the enjoyment of exemption from their present spiritual as well as temporal trials. This does not imply that there are not intellectual and spiritual duties and meditations suitable to that abode, such as may give due scope to that activity, which seems essential to personal conscious spirits. The "sleep" more probably refers to the appearance of the body in death, and is beautifully expressive of the calm repose with which the Christian sinks into final dissolution.
    (5.) Neither is the intermediate state a place of cleansing from sin. That it is so is held by the Church of Rome. That church teaches that at death all unbaptized adults, and all who have fallen into and continued in mortal sin after Baptism, go immediately to hell. All who have been baptized, and remain in union with that Church, and have attained a life of Christian perfection, go immediately to heaven. Unbaptized infants occupy what is called "the Limbus infantum," a place in the higher part of hell, which the flames do not reach, and suffer only a "paenam damni" (penalty of loss), and have no share in the "paenam sensus" (penalty of actual suffering), which afflicts adult sinners. But "the great mass of partially sanctified Christians, dying in fellowship with the church, yet still encumbered with imperfections, go to purgatory, where they suffer, more or less intensely, for a longer or shorter period, until their sins are both atoned for and purged out, when they are translated to heaven, during which intermediate period they may be efficiently assisted by the prayers and labours of their friends on earth."
    "They confess that this doctrine is not taught distinctly in Scripture, but maintain, 1st, that it follows necessarily from their general doctrine of the satisfaction for sins; 2d, that Christ and the Apostles taught it incidentally. . . . They refer to Matt. 12:32; 1 Cor. 3:15." Hodge's Outlines of Theology, pp. 556, 557.
    But the first of these passages is manifestly but a strong way of declaring that the sin referred to shall never be pardoned, without authorizing the inference that there are other sins which will be pardoned in the world to come. The second passage, by the various things which are built upon the true foundation, which, if false or insufficient, shall be burned, refers not to personal character, but to teachings.
    This doctrine of purgatory is based upon the very unscriptural theory of salvation through personal works and sufferings, which the Church of Rome holds, in connection with sacramental grace, to be supplementary to the meritorious work of Christ. While it has no support from Scripture, it is opposed to all that the Scriptures teach about the intermediate state of the righteous.
    3. The aspects of the intermediate state peculiar to the wicked.
    The Scripture teaching here is much more meagre. The four statements already mentioned, in which their condition and that of the righteous are similar, comprise almost all that is said. As peculiar to them, however, may be added.
    (1.) That Christ, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, speaks of their condition as (a) one of torment Luke 16:23-25, 28, (b) from which there is no escape to the condition of bliss of the righteous, verse 26, and (c) as endured in a place of torment, vs. 23, 28.
    (2.) Those who interpret 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 as referring to a personal preaching by Christ to the dead in Hades, necessarily hold that the wicked are "in prison." But, otherwise, we have no other proof than seems to be conveyed in the "impassable gulf" mentioned in Luke 16:26.
    (3.) It is a place in which they are reserved for punishment in the day of judgement. 2 Pet. 2:9.
    (4.) The only place spoken of in connection with the wicked during the intermediate state is Hades, or the place of departed spirits, which is always translated Hell in the King James version, but is transferred in the Canterbury Revision. The passages in which Hades is used are Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

    Rex

  • Stealth
    Stealth

    Rex,

    Just curious, were you ever a JW? If so for how long?

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Rex, you are still a dub. You just have a new name. Same techniques, same taking scriptures out of context. Where did you cut and paste all of that post from? I know you didn't sit there typing all of that stuff.

    My brother asked a group at my cousin's memorial, why when JW's leave the organization, they go to another religion, and just get all caught up again? (he also asked why they still believe in God) I walked away, because the subject is boring to me, but I see what he means. I don't mean to be insulting, but you really are still the same.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • Princess
    Princess

    whoooooaaaaa!!!! Way too much. I am not searching for enlightenment.

    I really just want to know where you came up with the statement that to fall short of the glory of god means eternal separation.

    Princess

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    HI Marilyn,
    Of course I 'cut and paste'. Why retype a research article when I have file saved with all of the pertinent info on it? Read it if you truly want an answer.
    Really, you do not know 'beans' about real Christianity or you wouldn't constantly associate it with 'dubs and their cultic beliefs. Have you ever actually researched the scriptures needed to understand protestant beliefs? I spent my first 45 years being exposed to JW beliefs and I absolutely hated Catholic and Protestant churches...
    Till God woke me up with the light of the Son! ;-)
    Princess has questions and I am trying to show her what I found. You don't begrudge her that, do you?
    Rex

  • Princess
    Princess

    Wait.

    I don't have questions in the way that you imply.

    I am questioning what you believe. You aren't answering my questions. I do find you rather insulting. You still have the I'm right and the other "cultural christians" (convenient little term) are wrong. right/wrong right/wrong jw/world jw/world see a pattern there?

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