Jesus Christ, Michael the Archangel does it really matter?

by unbaptized 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AuldSoul

  unbaptized,

  I agree that Michael is more than an angel in Heaven.

  Would you say, then, that you believe Michael is more than the Bible says Michael is? The Bible only says there is an archangel named Michael. The Bible does not say Michael the archangel is Jesus.

  Jehovah's Witnesses very much want only one archangel. Daniel 11 plainly counts Michael as one among other "foremost princes".

  Jehovah's Witnesses actively teach as Scriptural truth things that go well beyond what the Bible teaches. They believe the Bible needs reams and reams of help in the form of Governing Body interpetation in order to be properly understood. They follow traditions of men, not the Bible. Men who claim to speak for God (as God's sole channel of communication to mankind in our day) but who prophesy falsely moreso than any other religion. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

  Oddly enough, the book from which Jude's account about Michael is derived (Enoch) is absent from the NWT canon of the Scriptures. Either Jude is non-canonical or Enoch is canonical. Which do you believe is the case, unbaptized?

  —AuldSoul
• 

  icocer

  Auldsoul,

  I am not quite understanding what you are getting at with the book of Enoch not being cannonized. Can you further explain?
• 

  AuldSoul

  Sure. In Jude we read the account of Michael the archangel disputing with the devil over the body of Moses. This account is found only in Enoch. Jude is referencing a book that is not canonical according to the NWT committee. (Jude 8-10) Then Jude quotes from Enoch in verses 14, 15.

  Either Enoch is canonical or Jude is not canonical.

  Since the expression "Michael the archangel" is in context of the content of Enoch and since JWs base much of their interpretations of modern day prophetic fulfillment on Michael being Jesus, this problem becomes one to which they really need to respond.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  Narkissos

  AuldSoul,

  The story of Michael's dispute with the devil in Jude 9 is not from Enoch, but probably the Assumption of Moses. Enoch, otoh, is quoted verbatim in v. 14f, and alluded to in many other places (especially about the sin and punishment of the "angels").

  The assumption that a canonical book must only quote from another canonical book is rather an extreme take on canonicity. It is clear that the author of Jude considered Enoch as "scripture," but the debate on the canon proper came later and the vast majority of the church then left Enoch outside -- with the notable exception of the Ethiopian church.

  That being said, the core of your argument stands: all the Michael tradition has him as a member of a group of archangels.
• 

  Apostate Kate

  unbaptised if you already responded to this question and I missed it I apologize.

  My question regarding if it matters is this;

  The Bible says that all things were created by through and for Jesus (Eph 3:9, Col 1:16)

  Then is says in Rev 4:11 that the 24 elders worshipped the Lord who created all things.

  So my question is if the Bible says Jesus created all things, and if Jesus could be Michael a created angel, wouldn't Jesus have had to create himself?

  "For oti by en him autoV were ktizw all things paV created ktizw,"

  As I posted the word ktizw in Greek was never used in reference to Jesus. But that Jesus ktizw all things.

  soooooooo....if he was created....and all things were created by Jesus...see the problem here?
• 

  unbaptized

  Hello Kate,

  I do not disagree that Jesus created all things, But he did not create himself. The Almighty God created Jesus and all other things through Jesus.

  That's understandable.

  The Almighty God has entrusted his son Jesus with all of his belongings. Only someone who has deep love and trust can give his child all that authority. Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus was a created being? I truly believe people cannot get the full understanding of Jesus role because they do not understand that Almighty God is not the same person as Jesus the Christ. Because of this misunderstanding it is hard for them comprehend certain scriptures.

  Jesus and Almighty God are not equal in anyway! Almighty God gave Jesus the ability to create all things. Jesus who will not lie said in John 14:28, that his Father was greater. He told his discples that there are things that he(Jesus the son) nor the angels (other sons')did not know, but the Father knows. Mark 13:31-33.

  So in conclusion Jesus does not lie, he said it out of his own mouth
• 

  Apostate Kate

  I do not disagree that Jesus created all things, But he did not create himself. The Almighty God created Jesus and all other things through Jesus.

  That's understandable.

  Understandable by you but that does not make it true. The Bible does not say God the Father ever created the Son. The son is the Logos of God, which can not be created. Please show me the Greek words that prove your position.

  Jesus and Almighty God are not equal in anyway! Almighty God gave Jesus the ability to create all things. Jesus who will not lie said in John 14:28, that his Father was greater. He told his discples that there are things that he(Jesus the son) nor the angels (other sons')did not know, but the Father knows. Mark 13:31-33.

  Jesus was equel to God in nature, but willingly subordinant in function. For example Jesus willingly gave up His life (John 10:17)

  On John 14:28 Jesus said his Father was greater meaning in location and function at that moment in time. The object of Jesus here is not to compare his nature with that of the Father, but his condition. In other words; You would rejoice that I am to leave this state of suffering and humiliation, and resume that glory which I had with the Father before the world was. You ought to rejoice at my exaltation to bliss and glory with the Father

  Jesus shared the same nature as the Father. Omniscience, omnipotence, all knowing and unconditionally loving. No angel could ever have that nature. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Can an angel be everywhere at once? No. Absolutly not. Was Jesus lieing here?

  Jesus was bound with the Father in a way that no other life could but for God himself. Jesus was incapable of not doing the will of God. And you know full well the Scripture "I am my Father are one" There is no [in union with] but they are One.

  John 5 Jesus for the second time was in danger because the words he used in Hebrew equated himself with God. The WT said that the Jews wanted to kill him because they misunderstood him? Jesus; "I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise."

  An angel is capable of sin even an archangel. Jesus was not.
• 

  AuldSoul

  If I created all things that were created except for anything, then I did not create all things that were created.

  Simple logic, unbaptized. The caveat you impose is unscriptural. You have no Scripture to support your claim.

  Since "firstborn of all creation" does not mean "first created" (for which there is a perfectly functional Greek word) and since Jesus was prophetically spoken of as being eventually appointed firstborn or made firstborn after speaking (assuming speaking requires existence; Psalm 89:26, 27) I can only conclude that short of intentional ignorance there is no way you can still honestly claim that your initial assumption holds true regarding the meaning of "firstborn."

  unbaptized: Jesus who will not lie said in John 14:28, that his Father was greater. He told his discples that there are things that he(Jesus the son) nor the angels (other sons')did not know, but the Father knows. Mark 13:31-33.

  If I was co-police commissioner and I am made a parking meter reader am I equal to a police comissioner, or is a police commisioner greater than I am? Jesus said these things while he had been made a little lower than the angels, when he said these things they were true. After his resurrection he was at the right hand of God. Not below. Beside. Co-supreme.

  If he said the same things after his resurrection, he would have been lying. Instead, he said, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18) That happened in the First Century, not in 1914.

  But that is a sidepoint. You have yet to respond regarding whether Michael is Jesus in light of Daniel chapters 11 and 12. Was Jesus "one of the foremost princes?"

  You are choosing what to ignore. You still believe you see. The walls of the pit still bind you. I hope you will stop following blind guides and crawl out of the pit they've led you into.

  —AuldSoul

  Narkissos,

  Thanks for the clarification. Refining. Always refining. A needed thing given the pedantic nature of JWs when scrutinizing the words of those they deem apostate.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul