Jesus Christ, Michael the Archangel does it really matter?

by unbaptized 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    Unbaptized we can all benifit from doing research on what the Greek word "Logos" means and what would it mean to be the "Logos of God".

    John 1:1 In <en> the beginning <arche> was <en> the Word <logos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> with <pros> God <theos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> God <theos>.

    logoV logos log'-os

    from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason,
    + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

    Jesus was never what the Watchtower claims he was, that is a LIE. He was never created because God's mind, mental faculties, intent are as eternal as God is. If God never had a beginning then His thoughts LOGOS never had a beginning either.

    If you read every instance of how the word logos is used in the New Testament you will see the depth which that word covers. Only Jesus Christ was called "the Logos of God" and God's logos could never be anything but God. It would be blasphemy to even assume that.

    To call Jesus the logos of "a god" is utter blasphemy.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first :

    1Th 4:16

    With a shout. The word here used (keleusma) does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. It properly means a cry of excitement, or of urging on; an outcry, clamour, or shout, as of sailors at the oar, Luc. Catapl. 19; of soldiers rushing to battle, Thuc. iii. 14; of a multitude of people, Diod. Sic. iii. 15; of a huntsman to his aogs, Xen. Ven. vi. 20. It does not mean here, that the Lord would himself make such a shout, but that he would be attended with it; that is, with a multitude who would lift up the voice, like that of an army rushing to the conflict.

    With the voice of the archangel. The word archangel occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in Jude 1:9, where it is applied to Michael. It properly means a chief angel; one who is first, or who is over others arcwn. The word is not found in the Septuagint; and the only archangel, therefore, which is named in the Scriptures, is Michael, Jude 1:9 Comp. Re 12:7.

    Seven angels, however, are referred to in the Scriptures as having an eminence above others, and these are commonly regarded as archangels, Re 8:2. "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God." One of these is supposed to be referred to in the Book of Tobit, xii. 15, "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One." The names of three only of the seven are mentioned in the Jewish writings: Michael, the patron of the Jewish nation, [ NOT THE COMING MESSIAH] Da 10:13; 12:1. Gabriel, Da 8:16; 9:21 comp. Lu 1:19,26. Raphael, Tobit iii. 17; v. 4; viii. 2; ix. 1, 5; xii. 15. The Book of Enoch adds that of Uriel, pp. 187, 190, 191, 193. Michael is mentioned as one "of the chief princes," Da 10:13; and as "the great prince," Da 12:1. Comp. Cmt. on Eph 1:21, and see an article by Prof. Stuart in the Bibliotheca Sacra, No. x on Angelology.

    It seems evident from the Scriptures, that there is one or more among the angels to whom the name archangel properly belongs. This view is in accordance with the doctrine in the Scriptures that the heavenly beings are divided into ranks and orders, for if so, it is not unreasonable to suppose that there should be one or more to whom the most exalted rank appertains. Comp. Re 12:7.

    Whether there is more than one to whom this name appropriately belongs, it is impossible now to determine, and is not material. The word here (in Greek) is without the article, and the phrase might be rendered, "with the voice of an archangel." The Syriac renders it, "with the voice of the prince of the angels." On an occasion so august and momentous as that of the coming of the final Judge of all mankind, the resurrection of the dead, and the solemn transactions before the tribunal of the Son of God, deciding the destiny of countless millions for ever, it will not be inappropriate that the highest among the heavenly hosts should be present, and take an important part in the solemnities of the day. It is not quite certain what is meant here by the "the voice of the archangel," or for what purpose that voice will be heard. It cannot be that it will be to raise the dead--for that will be by the "voice of the Son of God," (Joh 5:28-29;) [could not have been Jesus] and it seems most probable that the meaning is, that this will be a part of the loud shout or cry which will be made by the descending hosts ore,yen; or perhaps it may be for the purpose of summoning the world to the bar of judgment.

    And with the trump of God. The trump which God appoints to be sounded on that solemn occasion. It does not mean that it will be sounded by God himself. Cmt. on Mt 24:31.~Barnes

    Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. He* will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    *He being Jesus is not included as an angel

    As Hebrews was mentioned, if as the Watchtower claims that Jesus was that archangel do angels worship angels? Worship belongs to God alone!

    Hebrews 1:6-8 Again, when he brings in the firstborn+ into the world he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him." Of the angels he says, "Who makes his angels winds, And his servants a flame of fire." but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God*, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.

    +Does not mean created it means preeminent. The word for created is ktizw ktizo ktid'-zo and has never been used in reference to Jesus.

    * angels are God's????

    Philippians 2:11 And <kai> that every <pas> tongue <glossa> should confess <exomologeo> that <hoti> Jesus <Iesous> Christ <Christos> is Lord <kurios>, to <eis> the glory <doxa> of God <theos> the Father <pater>.

    kurios-from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

    The word kurios is only used for God and Jesus. Not some nobleman or govornor as the WT tries to claim.

    Matthew 4:7 Jesus <Iesous> said <phemi> unto him <autos>, It is written <grapho> again <palin>, Thou shalt <ekpeirazo> not <ou> tempt <ekpeirazo> the Lord <kurios> thy <sou> God <theos>.

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Hello Stark

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Stark,

    Let's just use the ancient name of Almighty God before it was translated. (YHWH) Let's leave out the word LORD and GOD and call him by the name he gave to ancient Israel.

    Now let's call Jesus by his name that was translated as Yeshua in greek. Now you made some good arguments about the origin of Yeshua and about the word firstborn being used in that scripture, but you left out a very important piece namely the word CREATION. Did you look up the greek word for CREATION? Because that passage said that he was the Firstborn of all CREATION.

    Secondly you pointed to a scripture in Psalms 89:27, stating that YHWH said that David was his firstborn? You also stated that this meant that David was in a higher position. I have to disagree with your logic, because YHWH was referring to his firstborn son Yeshua who's kingdom would never be brought to an end. YHWH stated in the scriptures that Davids kingdom would be the most high over all the kings of the earth. Now David's kingdom was great indeed, but his son Solomon's kingdom was greater than his and their were other rulers on the earth who had far greater kingdom's than David ever had, So what I'm thinking now is Yeshua is the legitimate aire to the throne of David, he is the promised Messiah spoken of by the scriptures. Also the scriptures state the Messiah's kingdom will never be brought to ruin and it will be greater than any other kingdom on the earth. So my final conclusion is the Yeshua was the figurative David that YHWH was referring too his FIRSTBORN Son

    To be continued,

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Stark,

    I wanted to address your other comment regarding Jeremiah in which you said that Firstborn means a higher position or status. The Ephraim in which YHWH was referring too was the tribe of Ephraim not the individual. This was figurative speaking not literal. YHWH also called Israel his firstborn(Exodus 4:22), in which Israel was the first nation adopted by YHWH. To expand on the importance of being the firstborn, YHWH also commanded the Israelites to bring all firstborn that open the womb to him to be sanctified.(Exodus 13:2) So YHWH who created this law for the Israelites also follows his own law, by giving us the firstfruits of his produce which was Yeshua aka Jesus.

    I want to expound a little more on this firstborn thing. When Moses told the Israelites to slaughter a lamb and place the blood on the door post of their homes to save their firstborn did he mean the highly status ones or did he mean the literal firstborn?

    Now regarding your next issue with the fact that Yeshua was used by YHWH to create all other things whether in Heaven or on earth. The throne that Yeshua sit's on is in fact YHWH's throne. YHWH allows his son to make judicial decisions and to use his Holy Spirit and Power to bring glory to the Heavenly Father YHWH and in turn the Heavenly Father glorifies his son Yeshua. YHWH has always used kings to judge from his Heavenly throne on earth. David, Solomon and Saul were just a few. The scriptures state that Solomon began to sit down on YHWH's throne as king that his father David had sat upon. (1 Chronicles 29:23)

    This is the information I have researched.

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Stark,

    So in conclusion YHWH can use anyone whom he wants to work out his purpose. He used his son the Word aka Yeshua aka Jesus aka Michael to assist with the creation process and the restoration of mankinds relationship with the Heavenly Creator. Also to vindicate his Holy Name.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    The Bible writers appear to be at pains to identify Jesus with the Word, the Son of God and the Messiah, however:

    • Nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus is the son of YHWH.
    • Nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus is Michael.

    Some would argue that there are references identifying Jesus with YHWH, though I personal find that inconclusive.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    Colossians 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:16 For <hoti> by <en> him <autos> were <ktizo> all things <pas> created <ktizo>, that are in <en> heaven <ouranos>, and <kai> that are in <epi> earth <ge>, visible <horatos> and <kai> invisible <aoratos>, whether <eite> they be thrones <thronos>, or <eite> dominions <kuriotes>, or <eite> principalities <arche>, or <eite> powers <exousia>: all things <pas> were created <ktizo> by <dia> him <autos>, and <kai> for <eis> him <autos>:

    By Jesus ALL things were created so if that is true did Jesus create himself?

    Jesus is the physical image of God.

    All things were created by Jesus, and for Jesus: And Jesus is before all things, and by Jesus all things consist.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Kate:
    While you understand what you are getting at, and I understand what you're getting at, posting lots of scriptures is a real turn off. How about a little reasoned debate instead of one-sentence sound-bites?

    I know, I know, I'm being a hypocrite, as most of my posts are just one or two sentence sound-bites

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    unbaptized,

    If Yeshua was the first-born why would the Psalmist write that he would be made firstborn? (or appointed, placed, etc.)

    Your logic is staggeringly flawed on many levels, but this one leaps out starkly. (No offense, stark. ) If he is firstborn he cannot be made firstborn. Psalm 89:27 is not speaking of someone who doesn't yet exist, so ordinal order of creation cannot be the criterion expressed. It is, without any question referring to position in authority.

    The authority was conferred on Yeshua at some point between death and Yeshua's words recorded at Matthew 28:18. Here is a mathematical word problem that demonstrates an error in JW teachings regarding Yeshua:

    Simon has 8 apples and Susan has 6 apples. If Simon finds two more apples and gives them to Susan does Susan have more apples than Simon? Does Simon have more apples than Susan? Do they have an equal number of apples?

    God has all authority. God gives equal authority to Christ. Is God subject to Christ? No. Does Christ have "all authority in heaven and on earth", or not? What does your Bible say, unbaptized?

    He was made, or appointed firstborn after his resurrection.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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