Holocaust denial, do you think it's serious?

avishai

I wonder which camp skyking was referring too? Sobibor? Belzec? Treblinka? Maidanek? More? Or just one...Hmmmm
avishai

That said, I don't trust any world leaders, their words, or their intentions any farther than I could throw them. But I ask again--what about what Israel is not just threatening but actually doing (and has been doing for generations) to a people who, according to some, don't even exist?! Is it not the least bit disturbing to anyone?
Did'nt ask about the "Nation" of Israel. Yes, I find some things about what that country is doing to be disturbing. But...It's policy's are often thrown up as a justification for what happened to people who were'nt affiliated, etc. So that dog won't hunt.
And, frankly, no I don't think it's as important. What I find more intersting is while Israeli's let Arabs and naturalized Palestinians become citizens, and even high ranking members of it's government, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan won't let anyone from Palestine emigrate to those countries, many of whom came from there very recently. Interesting, huh?
Clam

A very interesting subject. The victims of the nazis suffered crimes of almost unimaginable proportions, and as if they didn't suffer enough, there are people who tell them it was all a fabrication. This is the ultimate example of adding insult to injury.
Prior to the death camps, the SS Einsatzgruppen, a hand picked unit of approximately 1500 men suceeded in murdering 1.5 million men, women and children between 1941 and 1943. There is a vast amount of evidence supporting this, yet denial of even the most infamous mass shooting, that at Babi Yar is denied by sneering born again national socialists with propositions that ostensibly seem reasonable. See this link as an example http://judicial-inc.biz/Babi_Yar.htm
Some would read this presentation and either believe it or at least have their suspicion raised as to the validity of testimony of perpetrator and survivor alike. In posession of the facts and evidence it would become clear that the deniers' claims are dressed up trash.
People either scrutinize or they don't. A lot of people wouldn't see it as important enough for them to bother themselves with. Holocaust denial will go on and on, in spite of high profile proponents like David Irving being exposed as liars. To many, denial fits in nicely with all their other views of the world.
Clam
Gill

This is one of the main reasons why free speech is important!
People should be allowed to claim that the Holocaust did not happen. If they are then imprisoned or silenced others begin to wonder, 'what is the government trying to hide?'
When people make a claim, however spurious, where free speech exists ordinary people can research for themselves the evidence and the truth of the situation becomes more evident. If such beliefs are hidden in dark corners, light cannot be shed on them and the Real Truth cannot be revealed.
Let them deny it as long as others shout out just as loud and even louder what really did happen!
Fe2O3Girl

I am not sure whether it is a good thing to dignify Holocaust deniers' arguments with a response, but I suppose that it is essential that the facts are clearly established. I disagree with criminalising Holocaust denial.
Some Muslim groups have called for "Holocaust Day" to be replaced by "Genocide Day". Although I suspect that their motivation is to downplay the suffering of Jewish people, which I don't agree with, I do think that it would be beneficial to stop treating the Jewish Holocaust in Germany in the mid-twentieth century as a unique event.
Genocide is happening over and over again, all over the world. It is a dangerous trap to focus on one example, where conveniently the ruling power was defeated and some of the leaders brought to justice. We neatly close the lid, that was then, not people like us. And it goes on, but we don't need to think about it, because the Nazis are gone (or at least those Nazis are gone).
I am also very uneasy with the tendency of some groups (like the JWs) to use being persecuted in Nazi Germany as a "Get out of Jail" card in any argument. Any criticism is countered with a reference to Nazi persecution. I know I used to do it.
Sad emo

I sometimes wonder whether the Nazi organised genocide is portrayed as unique because of the numbers and because it was done in such a blatant manner. Other genocides have also taken place and gone unnoticed - take the Ukraine for example where 7 - 10 million died in 1932-33, the difference is that they were starved to death in their own homes - much of the rest of the world records the event as a famine rather than genocide. The same thing happened in Ireland in the late 1800's - but the fine, upstanding British don't do things like that do they?! So let's just call it a potato famine....
I guess what I'm really getting at is that for every Holocaust denier out there, there may be several hundreds/thousands who either deny or are ignorant of other holocausts which have taken place, so we can't really point fingers at those who deny one event, however wrong they may be.
LittleToe

There are eye-witnesses to German atrocities, including reports from liberating soldiers from several nations. Holocaust denial is downright stupid, although the ends being pursued on the back of the holocaust are also a little dubious.
Israel is a warzone of terror. Israelis and Palestinians literally hate and detest one another. They treat each other like dogs. Neither side are pure in this. The Israelis have the guns and aren't afraid to use them, but the Palestinians continue to provoke them. Neither side is innocent.
Should the Israelis be the "bigger" people, since they have the advantage? That's an interesting moral debate in a culture that is at wide variance to the one we're familiar with. To even begin the debate you'd need to be able to get into the minds of the Middle-Eastern people. I know that, for one, I can't. I've observed first-hand a variety of cultures on three continents (Africa, Europe and North America), and studied many others, and know enough to ascertain the fact that people can be wired completely differently. That still doesn't permit me to properly understand their perspectives, though. I'd have to be terribly naive to think I could, as I've simply not walked in their shoes from birth.
Merry:I tend to be leary of any excerpts, be it a single sentence or a couple of phrases. They need to be placed in the context of the entire speech and take account of the audience and tone used. That then needs to be placed into the wider context of the political attitudes of the speaker.
In this case the "intent" was clear, albeit it has also been "spun" up in the war of words. Neither side is ignorant of the game they play. A very deadly game that involves peoples' lives.
There's blood-letting taking place on both sides of this debate. Neither side can be trusted to be giving the full story, hence I wouldn't tend to defend either. "All is fair in love and war", and politics uses this as a theme-tune!
Mary

skyking said: This is the problem with people they are close their mind to real facts. If the facts goes against what they think then they dismiss it. There are documents proving the Allies built the Gas Chamber we see today whether or not there were Gas Chamber before they built them after the war I can not say because I don't know.
Skyking get your head out of your ass. This sort of stupid reasoning just pisses me off to no end. I work closely with many Jews, some of them survived the concentration camps while their entire families were wiped out. I've listened to some of their first hand stories which, 60 years after it happened, still makes them sob with horror. I've seen the numbers stencilled on their arms and heard the stories of them seeing their mother and father leave the barracks and never return. For anyone to suggest that this even never happened is just sickening. The Nazis kept meticulous records and all you have to do is to dig a bit into Europe's demographic records from 1938 and 1946. Approximately 6 million Jews are missing and unless you believe they were all abducted by aliens, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened. And no, they did not immigrate to North America. Both Canada and the USA denied thousands of Jews refugee status at that time----something we should be deeply ashamed of. What I find incredible is that we've got Holocaust deniers today, yet not one single Nazi at the Nuremberg Trials denied that millions of Jews were exterminated---they simply denied that they personally were responsible and shoved the onus on to someone else.
I would strongly recommned that you read two books on this subject: Denying the Holocaust by Deborah Lipstadt and None Is Too Many by Erving Abella
I quit!

I'm not sure I understand those who deny that it happened because it is always said by those that seem to hate Jews. So is this what they are saying? I don't believe it ever happened but I think it was a good idea. I think it is an attempt to rewrite history for future generations. Right now there are living survivors who were either put in the camps or saw them. My father-in-law was an officer in WWII and went through one of them. I have met others who have done the same thing. There are living survivors even amongst JWs who were a very small group compared to others that were put in them. But these people are dying off and soon it will be easier to make believe it never happened.

skyking

Good morning world I see this thread is still going and the emotions are still high. Each year I attend College classes for about two weeks in the spring for the job I have. One of the classes dealt with the Holocaust. Which did happen history is clear on this but with this said there are anomalies that can not be ignored, they deserve an answered. Like why documents from The Allies report that the Allies built Gas Chambers after the War. The documents are real.

Why photos taken during the war do not show the tall Smoke stacks of the Gas Chambers. At this conference we were shown copies of the documents that prove the Allies built the Chambers after the War that we see today. I have looked at my notes from that conference and one point of interest is what a former Director while being interviewed on film said. He said the famous grainy video's that shows people dieing in the chambers was not real but was a propaganda stunt produced by the Russian's Government after the war. This former Directors name is Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz Museum one needs to ask why he said this, was he lying? Also discussed was a Red cross report done after the war that stated not only did they not find proof of the Gas Chambers but other anomolies.

...Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the AuschwitzState Museum admitted on camera that ‘Krema 1,’ the alleged ‘homicidal...
cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/index.php?p=2730 - 55k - Jan 29, 2007 -

It took me over an hour this morning to find an article about the Red Cross report but here is a link. Remember this is from the RED CROSShttp://thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2005/01/18220 The report says right after the war the RED CROSS Found no Gas Chambers. This adds wieght to the claims. The Red Cross is the very institution that would scream the loudest about the Chambers but they found no proof of them? Was the Red Cross Lying? I do not know but people should be able to discuss it without name calling.

Millions of Jews were killed in the concentration camps and the Nazi's were killing the Jews because they were Jew is this not a bad enough? Why can't people look at the anomalies and discuss them without people getting nasty? Shame on you everyone of you that have gotten nasty in your post.

I was not there all I want is to do is look at the facts and find out why these anomalies exist. I should have this right without people being rude too me.

Last night I said I would post again I lied. Off to work I go. Have a good day

Holocaust denial, do you think it's serious?

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