Where did Russell get the notion that the 144k are a literal number, and that they are the rulers in heaven?
What do other religions believe this group to represent?
What did John really mean?
144000, Where did Russell get his idea, and what do other religions believe
by jwfacts 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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barry
Some SDAs used to beleive that only 144000 people would be saved and probably some still do beleive it. My Dad told me once about an SDA evangelist who beleived only 144000 would be saved until a person pointed out to him the small number 144000 is and how he was reducing his chance of being saved given the humber of christians in of the world ets. He changed his mind soon after that discussion.
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abbagail
Hi jwfacts:
Q: Where did Russell get the notion that the 144k are a literal number, and that they are the rulers in heaven?
Sorry, I don't know where Russell got HIS ideas about the 144,000 specifically, but I'm guessing he got the idea that they "rule in heaven" from Rev. 20:4 (see further below in full).
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Q: What do other religions believe this group to represent? What did John really mean?
I can give a shot at answering this one... ;-) I can only tell you what I have learned in my post-WT-mindset years, and I am non-denominational...
Firstly, take John's words at face value, ie: "One hundred [and] forty-four thousand OF ALL THE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL [were] sealed..."
That makes it pretty clear who the 144,000 are.
The problem of why people do not SEE what is so PLAINLY written is the WT and certain other churches of Christendom have chosen to follow the anti-Semite teachings of Origen and Ambrose, who convinced Augustine of the same. Origen and Ambrose hated everything Jewish and wanted it ALL OUT of the church. At the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. is when they succeeded in completely "REPLACING" everything to do with literal Israel and literal Jerusalem in scripture. Hence, it came to be known as "Replacement Theology."
So even though Israel is mentioned 2,602 times in scripture, these heretics decided that Israel now meant "Church."
And even though Jerusalem is mentioned 814 times in scripture, these same heretics decided that Jerusalem now meant "Heaven."
They "replaced" every doctrine or prophecy that applies to literal Israel and literal Jerusalem with "Church" and "Heaven."
This heresy was continued through the centuries via Martin Luther in the 1500s, who, even though he was correct about certain biblical teachings such as justification by faith alone (vs. works), he kept the "Replacement Theology" doctrine and continued to spread it. Next came John Knox who also kept this heresy and spread it to his church, Presbyterian. Then there was John Calvin who did the same, etc. etc.
So somewhere along the line, the WT decided to join these crooks and teach a version of what they taught, which is also referred to as "allegorizing" or "spiritualizing" literal scripture. I'm sure you well remember how famous the WT was for "spiritualizing" everything, rather than reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
Hence, the 144,000 are ISRAELITES, LITERAL ISRAELITES just as John wrote it. (See the texts in full further below).
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AND... the number of 144,000 is also literal.
But don't get excited, lol, because it is NOT literal in the way the WT wants JWs to believe it.
In other words, the WT says that a number totalling 144,000 is the ONLY AMOUNT of ALL humans that go to heaven, and that is NOT the case whatsoever.
The truth of the matter is that 144,000 is the ONLY NUMBER of LITERAL ISRAELITES that GO TO HEAVEN.
See the difference?
It's a BIG difference from WT teaching.
For example, I think there are about 10 million literal Jews on the planet today (even if that is not correct, let's just use it as an example).
Prophecy says that 2/3's of literal Israel [unfaithful, apostate Israel] will be killed during the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (a/k/a the seven-year Tribulation/Great Tribulation), but that God has long ago promised to save 1/3 of them, the "REMNANT," the LITERAL REMANT of LITERAL ISRAEL, and NOT the "church" or anyone from the WT org either! :-/
Therefore, 1/3 of 10 million Jews would be 3.3 million, a rather small number compared to all of humankind.
And the 144,000 are the "FIRST FRUITS" of these one-third of LITERAL ISRAELITES who willl be SAVED. (See Rev. 14:4 below). They are, as the other below scriptures say, VIRGIN JEWISH MEN who follow the Lamb wherever he goes, and have no deceit in their mouths, and they receive the name of God on their foreheads (which likely means they do NOT take the Mark of the Beast on their foreheads). They have the work of bearing witness to Jesus to their fellow Jews and the nations during the seven-year tribulation. They likely are among the ones who are "beheaded for their witnessing" about Jesus during this time-frame.
So, really, that is what John meant. He meant what he said. It's really very plain and simple once we understand the error of "replacement theology" of which the WT is very guilty of teaching and messing up everyone's mind with their twisted interpretations of ALL prophecy!
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You possibly may now be wondering if 144,000 is the ONLY amount of Humans (Jewish or Gentile) that go to heaven? The answer is NO, by NO MEANS (contrary to what WT wants people to think). But that is another aspect to be covered separately since it involves the CHURCH (or better: BODY OF CHRIST) vs. LITERAL ISRAEL. Certain prophecies apply to ISRAEL (and these are clearly stated throughout scripture but we had been brainwashed to IGNORE that obvious fact). Other prophecies apply to the BODY OF CHRIST, which is totally separate from LITERAL ISRAEL.
Let me go ahead and post this much, and if you want more, I can answer separately about all the rest who get to go to heaven (besides, and in addition to, these "first fruits"/144,000 redeemed from LITERAL Israel).
Blessings,
/ag
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Revelation 7:3 -- .....saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed: 5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand [were] sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand [were] sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand [were] sealed; 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand [were] sealed.
Revelation 14:1 -- Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Revelation 20:4 -- And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. -
jwfacts
Thanks Barry, it looks like it was another Adventist belief. Funny about your Dad, good reasoning to help change his mind.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000
Tongue in cheek note: According to that wikipedia article, the hexidecimal of 144,000 is 23280. So maybe we should all move to Richmond Virginia where the postal code is 23280, to be "saved".
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Atlantis
ZWT 1908-December-15-Reprints-pp.379-380 "Soon, we believe, the total number of 144,000 will have been tested, proven, and accepted beyond the veil--"changed in the twinkling of an eye," from human conditions to heavenly conditions--to the divine nature." Scan http://m1.freeshare.us/view/?127fs3470652.jpg ***************************************************************************** What Pastor Russell said p.686 Question (1911)--1--In Revelation we read about the four winds of heaven being holden by four angels that they should not blow upon the earth nor hurt the trees and grass, etc. What do we understand these winds to signify and how soon may we expect them to be let loose?
Answer--It is a symbolic expression, of course, dear friends. All the book of Revelation is symbolic. . . . (p. 737) "
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http://m1.freeshare.us/view/?127fs3477467.jpg
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What Pastor Russell said p.737
Question (1911)--1--We understand in symbolical language that a day means a year, a month thirty years, and a year 360 years. Since this same manner of figuring time is used in the book of Revelation, why is the period of Christ's reign for blessing all the families of the earth called one thousand years when by the same process of figuring it would be 360,000 years?
Answer.--Well, any who prefer to count it 360,000 have my full consent. I think I cannot be more liberal than that. I would say, however, dear friends, to my understanding some of the numbers in Revelation are symbolical and some are not; and I am inclined to think, for instance, that the 144,000 sealed ones is a literal number, and so I understand this 1,000 of the book of Revelation repeated over and over, refers to a thousand years literally. . . . (p. 686)
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http://m1.freeshare.us/view/?127fs3473422.jpg
Please note that the "literal" number of the 144,000 was based on what Russell "was inclined to think" and not based on the Bible itself! Before, when asked about the book of Revelation, Russell answered that ALL of the book of Revelation was "symbolic". All means all! Many of the quotes of Russell will appear like this: "I would say"----"I am inclined to think"----"I think".
The Watchtower is the very same way today! Back and forth flip flopping from one interpretation to another, always basing their doctrines on what the faithful slave "are inclined to think" at any particular time. Not on what the Bible really says!
Cheers! Atlantis-
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DannyHaszard
It's the Little flock (Luke 12:32) concept that is the engine that empowers the dogma this is from my 33 years of old time WT exposure since 1957.
Of course we know the real reason is that the end didn't come in 1914 like they said and they had more body count AND all cults have a sacred science of esoteric leadership 'big boss'
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Atlantis
Extra thought. (Miller spoke of "literal" Jews as the 144,000)
Russell, no doubt, took this same teaching from William Miller. William Miller--Evidence of The Second Coming! 1, "Then shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people." "And I heard the number of them which were sealed; and there were sealed a hundred forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." John first gives us an account of the number that were sealed in his day, out of all the tribes of Israel. They were sealed, as he tells us when he wrote, it being finished in the close of the Jewish dispensation. It being a complete number, 144,000, and therefore could be numbered; and as these were sealed at the close of that dispensation, so John now saw in vision a great number, which no man could number, sealed at the close of the Gentile dispensation, of which he has been prophesying; for after he has gone through with numbering twelve thousand in every tribe, he then says, Rev. vii. 9, "After this I beheld," that is,after this sealing, by which 144,000 had been sealed among the Jews, he beheld, "and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."This evidently refers to the last sealing time among all nations; for he again hears them singing the grand chorus song, as at the close of the history of the seven churches, "And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God, which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might be unto our God forever and ever, amen." Scroll down about 1/4 down the page. http://www.earlysda.com/miller/evidence12-15.html Cheers! Atlantis-
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jwfacts
Thanks for the info.
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Qcmbr
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 77:11)
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
