Further incite on Dawkin's The God Delusion

by Abandoned 104 Replies latest jw friends

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  lovelylil

  seeker,

  Nice to know another New Englander! You made some nice comments too. Unfortunatly most believers seem to fit into one extreme or the other extreme as you mentioned. Guess that is why I never really felt like I fit in to any of the churches I attended. I always saw things slightly different from everyone else. Still do! Its hard sometimes with my hubby who is a hard core literalist of every word in the Bible. We got into massive arguements in the WT about this. This is a little off topic but here is the text we always argue about most;

  Proverbs 4:18
  The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day

  We all know this one. It is the text that the WT, as well as other religions use to support their teaching of "new light". However, like I so often pointed out to my husband (and still do), this is a proverb. And what is a proverb my friends?.......Thats right, it is a wise saying or teaching. They are written figuratively and are NOT to be taken as literal and definately NOT to be taken as a prophecy. Thus God was NOT fortelling that he would shed "new light" on things as time goes on. This text is not even referring to an organization in any way but rather an individual only.

  The list of misinterpretations goes on and on. But my hope is to offer up a more balanced view when I can. I'm still in the process of learning myself. I've read the Bible now for 25 years and still gain new insights into it and its meaning every day. And I don't believe I will ever have ALL the answers I am searching for. Sometimes I can seem a little more dogmatic on the board. Especially if I am addressing another believer when speaking about the Bible. For others, I try to approach things differently because I don't want anyone to think I am forcing the Bible down their throats or the idea of God. Christianity is not the chosen life course for everyone. And I respect people's rights to make their own decisions. Of course, most of my Christian friends are gritting thier teeth at me, at this very moment. Peace, Lilly

  Maybe if I'm planning a trip up your way some day, we can get together. And vice versa if you are ever near Boston?
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  kid-A

  "Oh, and for the record, why is the onus on the theist to prove anything?"

  > For the simple reason that the theist is the one putting forth the claim, not the agnostic or atheist. Indeed, these terms only exist in response to the "god hypothesis" put forward by believers. The simple fact is, due to our overwhelmingly religious culture, believers simply "get away" with their claims, without ever being held to account for or provide real evidence for their proposed god. I could stand on a pulpit and claim that a purple unicorn exists, that he has "revealed" holy texts to me and that if all dont repent and serve him, he shall banish all non-believers to eternal torment. I would likely be put in a mental ward. However, a "preacher" need simply replace the noun "purple unicorn" with "god" and everyone believes him and reveres his wisdom, DESPITE the fact he has no greater proof of his "god" then I do for my "purple unicorn"......its all just social construction.

  "I think the onus is on anyone who wants to prove something."

  > Yes I completely agree. And as an academic scientist and researcher, thats what I do every single day in my experiments, by producing replicable, observable and tangible evidence to support or not support my particular theories and/or hypotheses. This is difference between the world of faith and the world of science. To quote Steve Colbert, the religionist only requires the "truthiness" of something, not cold, hard observable facts.
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  Blueblades

  James Thomas, thanks for your reply. Seeker, I'm with you on this one.

  Blueblades
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  tetrapod.sapien

  lol kid-A! "truthiness", he he, i am going to remember that term.

  good to see ya around man.

  tetra
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  Terry

  Seems to me that the trigger for any kind of belief (religious or secular) is anxiety. An unknown produces the need for information which we may not possess. Our intellect serves us only when it produces information which allows us some navigable choices in the face of the unknown. If no data is present we have a fallback: guesswork/speculation.

  For a human, something is better than nothing. A guess is a starting point and reduces anxiety. Our favorite position is Yes/No or Black/White because there is less work needed to sort through choices. A greyscale from white to black is awfully labor intensive. We'd never postulate a partial god-thing. If we did and were able to refrain from calling it the personified GOD; we'd end up with nature itself.

  What sort of god-thing is easiest to deal with? One that is entirely foreign to our knowledge base, or; one that is more like us? We know how to deal with humans who are more powerful than us because there is a protocol in place to ingratiate us into favor. We compliment the superior and show we are willing to serve them. We pay hommage and offer ourselves up to their superiority. As needs arise we approach tenderly and ask politely for favors and make apologies when we suspect we overstep our relationship.

  This seems to be the time-honored protocol for dealing with God as well!

  Look into religious writings and see if the above is not what has been cooked-up as the ideal approach to God. Some are more polite in the approach to God and some are more absolute, but; the general tone of worship is an intensification of our own dealings with powerful officials entirely human in form. Our inevitable "god" can be a king, a tyrant, a boss, a friend, a brother, or a father figure.

  The Bible has been successful because it harkens to the strong Father Figure. God is unpredictable while asserting he is unchanging! This is a kind of escape clause for too close scrutiny that allows anything to happen and yet be fully within our view of the possible.

  The New Testament gives us the SON who is "like Father; like son" and we all know the franchise will continue. We'd rather deal with the son than the father because he is less scary.

  None of these religious anxiety relieving mechanisms is entirely satisfactory because they can't actually deal with a destructive reality and maintain god's favor at the same time in a logical contextual frame. So, the blame game is afoot! We blame the victim of all horror: ourselves. It isn't God's fault we suffer harm; it is our own fault and we really deserve it. We beg for help knowing we don't deserve help. Yet, we've built in some magic words of worship that might help us hit the benevolence jackpot and gain God's lottery win: the Miracle.

  Humanity, as long as they can relieve anxiety, will play the GOD IS THERE game. It gives us a small chance that we can win in the long run. If we postulate there is NOTHING THERE we are left to our own resources! We'd rather not trust our own efforts because we've been enculturated to think of ourselves as awfully flawed.

  I leave it to you to sort out which has driven mankind closer to the better life: technology (self-help) or belief in God (hope).

  I don't think there is any contest, but; that is a view that was a long time coming. Frankly, I'm relieved to know I'm in charge of my life. There is less fawning and ritual involved and the uncertainty is merely addressed by better planning and raising my goals.

  Your mileage may vary.
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  Seeker4

  Points well made, KidA, and thanks, Blueblades.
  
  Lil, I am so with you on Pro. 4:18. Absolutely one of the most mis-applied verses by the WTS, and I realized that long before I left the Witnesses. It's application to the "new light" in the WTS is completely baseless. Just read the context. Yet, the average Witness will parrot that verse in such a mindless way to defend the Society's constant waffling.
  
  I also have to say that my favorite Bible book for always was Ecclesiastes, followed by Proverbs. When I started reading the Tao Te Ching, I recognized that Ecclesiastes seems to have a very strong Eastern philosophy influence. That concept of living in the here and now and living each day fully, doing whatever you're doing with all your power - THAT is a very usable approach to life.
  
  If Lori and I get to Boston I'll contact you beforehand to see if we can get together, and if you come to Vermont, do likewise.
  
  S4
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  skyking

  After reading the last 3 pages my head is spinning. Lilly you have made me scratch my head, I believe you had no idea the responses you were going to get.

  I had many of the same conclusion about the book as you. I see the contorted reasoning's of Dawkins. Even with this said, he does claim to know the beginning, he is willing to admit it. The difference is huge religionist claim they know, their answer begs a bigger question? God is an impossibility they forget needs explained.

  The book gives a balanced person time to reflect. I hate all religions at this point and time, excepted for the Buddhist. I have not studied them yet.
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  Abaddon

  Did we read the same book?

  Please give examples of supposed contorted reasoning and what you mean by 'claims he knows the begining'. Once I know what you mean, I can respond further.
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  stillajwexelder

  I see the contorted reasoning's of Dawkins. ???????????

  What do you mean - I found his reasoning to be almost flawlessly logical. It is a little harder in some of his other books such as The Selfish Gene , but in the God Delusion I can see how it is the theists that have contorted reasoning.
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  acadian

  OK, can anyone tell me where they hid all the half evolved animals ! I don't seem to be able to find any...huh... You'd think that any reasoning man or woman would ask..."why don't we see any half evolved critters, ya know, like, half snake and half bird or half fish and half woman?" did evolution stop or something? Why are there no inter-mixed species, like a goat and a dog? I mean, if we came out of a puddle of mud like some say... there should always be transitional evidence.. as of this date there is none.(period) I respecfully wait for the evidence...and wait...and wait...LOL Hi Lovelylil, always enjoy your comments. Peace Acadian