The serious conversation with the wife about the cult

by OnTheWayOut 67 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    If you needed my background, this thread will tell it-
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/121888/1.ashx

    My wife recently asked me about not commenting at a WT study.
    Our discussion was the topic of this thread-
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/126485/1.ashx

    She's been on alert since that discussion. Over the holidays,
    she had some time off to visit family. I had business obligations so
    I caught up with her a few days later. We had quite a discussion
    while away from home.

    Background- in her immediate family, she has a DF sister, mother and
    father never got baptized as JW, but attend the cong. meetings. Other
    siblings are never baptized, not JW at all. She has aunt and cousins who
    are JW. Her DF sister has a daughter. My wife loves her niece, loves spending
    time with her. The DF sister hooked up with a new boyfriend. While my wife
    was visiting the family, that DF sister refused to come around and refused to
    talk with family, answer the phone, etc. My wife would call and leave messages
    saying how she would love to see her niece- messages piled up unanswered.

    I arrived in town. I had a huge layover on my travels. I am currently reading
    IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM which is a huge sized book. I decided to
    put it aside and start reading RELEASING THE BONDS by Steve Hassan. I carried
    that book with me.

    Okay, discussions start. My wife tells me how her sister won't take her calls and let
    her see the niece. I answer by saying "Could she be mad that you shun her?"

    "Well, there's a principle involved."

    "Your parents talk to her, your siblings talk to her, the only one who shuns her is you."

    "They aren't JW's."

    "Your JW aunt and cousins all talk to her. How is she different from your worldly
    siblings?"

    "She got baptized and knows better. She made no efforts to come back."

    "Not true. I talked with her elders many years ago.(while I was an elder elsewhere)
    They said she tried to come back, but we denied her after her first request, so she
    just stopped coming to the Hall. She got baptized as a teenager because her friends
    were getting baptized."

    "If she got baptized, it's because she wanted to serve Jehovah. If she wasn't able to
    live up to the dedication, the elders should have stopped her or her parents."

    "Your parents are not JW's. They didn't stop you or her as teens. The elders didn't
    even consider making her wait. She's living the same lifestyle as your siblings and
    the only difference is that she made her mistakes after baptism, while your siblings
    held back. You talk to them. She might be tired of your shunning, only wanting to see
    Niecy, perhaps her new boyfriend encouraged her to withhold the girl."

    Wife in JW overload, changes the subject-
    "So what did you do on your business travel and layover?"
    I do not believe in telling lies to the wife. If I am asked questions, I will answer.
    If I wanted to mislead, I could have said I looked at magazines and JW literature.
    (I did have those with me.) If I had been reading Ray Franz, I would have ducked the
    question, still letting my wife know that I was ducking, so that I wasn't deceiving her, but
    just didn't want to be DF'ed for my answer. I decided to try total truth with an opportunity
    for her to stop questioning at any time.

    "I was reading a book."

    "What book?"

    "RELEASING THE BONDS. It's about using the freedom of your mind."

    "Using the freedom, how?"

    "By removing the negative influences that prevent you from independent thinking."

    "What negative influences?" (She wants to know, she wants me to say.)

    "There are influences on people that control their behaviour, information available
    to them, their thinking, and their emotions. They prevent independent thinking and
    want you to just accept what they say."

    "I still don't understand. What exactly is the book about?" (I gave her the opportunity
    to stop. She did not stop.)

    "The book is about mind-control cults and their danger."

    "Do you think JW's are a mind-control cult?" (Many JW's would automatically assume
    they had to defend the WTS on this subject.)

    I only duck enough to avoid a direct answer. "They do seem to fit the profile."
    We discuss back and forth for awhile on this subject.

    She says "There are some basic Bible truths that I know only JW's preach. They say that
    the Bible doesn't teach Hellfire and they proclaim the good news thru-out the earth."

    "I can agree about the Hellfire doctrine, but other religions tell the good news. The guys on
    downtown corners with a microphone telling the gospel are copying the apostle's example
    more than our door to door witnessing."

    I will post this and continue the story in my next entry.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Our conversation continues for 30 minutes or so. I cannot remember
    everything said. One highlight was my information to her about FDS.
    "As an elder, I learned something. The governing body doesn't poll the
    FDS members on doctrine. They don't consult them. They don't invite
    them to Bethel for their input. They don't even have a list of their names.
    They only know the ones that are serving as CO's, DO's, Bethelites,
    or Branch service. All doctrinal decisions are made by the dozen men in
    the Governing Body, now down to ten men. We turn our lives over to these
    men, and the average Witness has no idea how decisions are made by
    these men."

    "Well, each person should check matters for themselves in the Bible."

    "But they don't. I do now, and I get grief for questioning matters. Do you
    check matters for yourself- I know you rely on the WTS to have checked for
    you."
    Eventually, the conversation got heavy. I wanted to win the war, not just this
    one battle, so I tried to tread lightly. I changed the subject.
    "Why did you need so badly to get a master's degree- against WT policy?"

    "Education with a purpose"

    "You are not pioneering. Your purpose has always seemed to be financially
    independence for yourself."

    "Is that wrong?"

    "No, but you know how the WTS feels about that. Even though I make good
    money, you felt the need to be independent. You've always had some insecurity
    about that. Is it that you felt that you would be all alone." (I know it is)

    "Yes. I need to be ready."

    "Okay, but unless I die, do you think I will leave you?"

    "Well, many people who leave the truth start to lead a life of sin. It could happen."

    "Do you really believe I want to live in sin? You and I love each other so much, say
    what you really feel."

    "My mother raised me to get married and have someone else make decisions for me,
    but at the same time, she planned for my father leaving her.
    (Her father did leave her mother about 5 years ago, but signs were there for 20 years. )
    I wanted to be ready for whatever might come my way. I know you are not like my
    father. I know you love me, I don't think you would ever leave me." (It took longer to
    say these things, but I am getting straight to the point for the story's sake)

    "We have such a bond of trust. I will respect you and love you no matter where this
    search for truth takes me and where it takes you. (indicating that if I stopped being
    a JW and she did not, the marriage and trust and respect would continue.) I will never
    change our bond. If trouble is caused, I am willing to go to counseling with you. I want
    to be with you for the rest of my life."

    "I feel better for your saying that."

    "There's one thing I want to ask of you. Since we have such a bond of trust, if you are
    asked by the elders to gather evidence to get rid of me, tell them to deal directly with me.
    Do not agree to discuss me with them- tell them to call me." (Again- many words are
    condensed. This subject was very hard to discuss.)

    "They wouldn't want to get rid of you for doubting. Just for sin." (We both avoided saying
    that I could be disfellowshipped.)

    "No, we have discussed that. Don't you think they would want to remove a possible
    bad influence in the congregation. If I promise not to try to influence people in the cong.
    and not go to other religions, will you be able to stay out of the middle between me and
    the elders?"

    "I will try to stay out of it. I will try to tell them to go straight to you."

    "I accept your honest answer. I don't know what they will ask you to do, but one day,
    they will ask. We have a wonderful trusting relation."
    That was about the end of it. She actually felt better

  • serendipity
    serendipity

    Hi On the way out,
    Sounds like you made some inroads. You're smart to remember that you want to win the war.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    If you read this far, thank you for your concern.
    So, here's my feelings. I had a good conversation with the
    wife. She's very JW, but I got very far with her. She has been
    affectionate since this, same as before.

    I see no reason to drag out my fade. She knows what I am thinking
    now. I don't want to just quit going to meetings, as I still want to
    avoid DF and try to support the wife, but I can speed up.
    I feel that I can totally stop going to the book study and go to less than
    half of the weekend meetings, and even less than that for TMS/Serv.Mtg.
    I could work my way to virtually never attending over the next 3 months
    but still travel with the wife to the assemblies. That would bring me up to
    the CO visit, he probably won't want to deal with me, then I can just go with
    the wife to the assemblies and NOTHING ELSE. I wouldn't even stay for the
    entire meetings on those (if I even go in) but since our foreign language
    cong. needs to travel, I can support Wifey by traveling with her. She would
    appreciate that much.

    Any thoughts, help would be appreciated from you all. Am I thinking right.
    I still have to tell my JW mother about stepping aside as an elder. I was having
    a non-JW sibling work on helping Mom, but I do need to say something to her.

  • candidlynuts
    candidlynuts

    wow you accomplished a lot ! keep on doing what your doing.. reassuring her of your love, answering her questions honestly and staying calm. she sounds like a very intelligent person, once she starts thinking without fear she will see the truth about the truth.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    On The Way Out:

    It seems like you and your wife have an honest, open, relationship. I really liked the way you were communicating your true thoughts and feelings to each other with respect and consideration for each other's viewpoints and insecurities. I believe that's a rare thing (at least, I haven't seen too much of it amoung all the married people I know, mostly JW)

    This relationship seems like it has a good chance to be saved. I think you are wise to not flood her with too much information at once. I pushed a lot of info on my husband on the premise of "honesty" but he was giving me plenty of signals that he did not want to know what I was reading or thinking or who I was talking to on the internet. All I ended up doing was stressing the hell out of him. He is happy in his rut/prison. Your approach of just answering her questions and stopping when she had enough seems much more effective as people process info and make changes when they are ready not when we are ready for them to change. Let us know how things continue to progress.

    Cog

  • outoftheorg
    outoftheorg

    Wow, what a good approach to tell your wife your feelings and still keep the marriage together.

    It seems that she didn't drop into the jw " I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT" mode. Which tells me that she is more rational than many jw's.

    If only my leaving the cult had been this well done.

    Reading about your love for each other and sensing your wifes love for you, brought tears to my eyes as I recall my angry divorce and my wife going to the elders and their hate.

    Best wishes to you and yours.

    Outoftheorg

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    You two love each other. And you care about how the other feels and thinks. That is worth more than millions. You are both blessed.

  • choosing life
    choosing life

    Sounds like you did a good job actually communicating with your wife. I think it is important when one mate chooses to leave the religion that they assure their mate that they still love them. Witnesses have been so conditioned to think that someone who leaves will sleep around, do drugs and basically "fall into a life of sin."

    Telling her that you will not leave her and affirming your love for her needs to be done regularly to combat all the negative things she hears at the hall. Just by living a life of integrity to your own beliefs and proving the society's propaganda to be wrong will speak volumes to her.

    And it sounds like your wife is more open minded than most JWs.

  • penny2
    penny2

    Hi OTWO

    Just a few comments from my own fade:

    When I was at the point of only attending a few meetings, I received a shepherding visit. They asked me why I was hardly attending meetings and hadn't put in a report for a while, I said simply, "I've lost my faith." They said, "Would you like someone to study with you?" I said, "No, I have all the books and know what I have to do. If I need you, I'll let you know." They were very satisfied with that and I never heard from them again.

    After that, I still kept attending some meetings due to family pressure. In hindsight, I could have stopped all meetings sooner. It's just a matter of getting past the pain. Once the family got used to me not going, it got easier. Before that, each meeting was a battle - was I going or not? After the big decision, it was simple - I wasn't going - end of story.

    If you are doing it slowly, the book study is the best meeting to give up first because that's where you are under more scrutiny. The easiest is to take up a night course and make it the book study night.

    I can't stress enough, how much better life becomes after you stop going to all meetings. You don't have to put on a pretense, you don't have to listen to the irritating talks and comments, you don't have to justify yourself.

    Regarding your mother, I don't think you should fear telling her you are no longer an elder. Tell her exactly what happened during the CO's visit (the conversation). She will be disgusted and that will take the focus off you.

    Good luck with it all!

    penny2

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