Comments You Will Not Hear at the 12-31-06 WT Study (Discipline)

Notice how the WTS starts out with an OT scripture and uses a OT example, Solomon. Remember Solomon is the one who became and died an "apostate" (but will be resurrected..see last week’s comments).

Did you ever wonder what it meant when the Bible says "such fornication, that a wife a certain man [had] of his father"? Was he married to his own mother? Was he living in a sexual situation with his mother unmarried? Was he living in a sexual situation with his stepmother unmarried? Was he married to his stepmother and she wasn’t "scripturally free"? Was he married to his ex-stepmother? Huh?

How long was he "disfellowshipped" (a word that is not in the Bible) A year, several years, several months? Another word not in the Bible, "reinstatement." The WTS has to make up words because this is not in the Bible.

Based on this article, last week’s, and several side articles in the magazines and KMs, I think the rank and file are not obeying the WTS directives on df’ing………….

START OF ARTICLE

Q1) Why should we accept divine discipline?

1) KING SOLOMON of ancient Israel gives each one of us a good reason to accept discipline from God. "The discipline of Jehovah, O my son, do not reject," says Solomon, "and do not abhor his reproof, because the one whom Jehovah loves he reproves, even as a father does a son in whom he finds pleasure." (Proverbs 3:11, 12) Yes, your heavenly Father disciplines you because he loves you.

OT example

— Solomon (who died an apostate who did not "accept discipline")

Does the WTS teach that the Father disciplines or through the "mother organization—the WTS"?

*** w01 6/15 p. 26 Be Joyful With the Kingdom Hope! ***

Let us always stay close to Jehovah and his motherlike organization, not separating ourselves from their direction and loving counsel."

*** w57 5/1 p. 279 par. 1 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers ***

So when we are disciplined by our heavenly Father through his wifely organization it is to instruct us and help us to grow up and become really mature Christians giving due honor to our Father and mother.

Q2) How is "discipline" defined, and how may a person be disciplined?

2) "Discipline" refers to chastisement, correction, instruction, and education. "No discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous," wrote the apostle Paul, "yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness." (Hebrews 12:11) Accepting and applying divine discipline can help you to pursue a righteous course and thus bring you closer to the holy God, Jehovah. (Psalm 99:5) Correction may come by way of fellow believers, through things learned at Christian meetings, and from your study of God's Word and the publications of "the faithful steward." (Luke 12:42-44) How thankful you can be when something needing adjustment is thus brought to your attention! But what discipline may be required if serious sin is committed?

Notice how the WTS lists "chastisement" first in definition of "discipline." What is the source of this definition?

Closer to the holy God

— where’s Jesus? (OT scripture)

Correction may come the way of fellow believers

— does that mean the rank and file can go around "correcting" you? (BTW fellow believers = only JWs)

Things learned at Christian meetings

= JW meetings only

From your study of God’s Word and the publicaitions of "the faithful steward

"— notice how for once the WTS uses the alternate scripture to Matthew 24:45-47. BTW the Bible cannot be understood without the help of the FDS per the WTS.

*** w02 12/1 p. 17 par. 17 Enjoy Personal Study of God’s Word ***

Then Philip, directed by holy spirit, helped the eunuch to understand the prophecy of Isaiah. (Acts 8:27-35) What does this illustrate? That our private reading of the Bible is not enough. Jehovah, by his spirit, uses the faithful and discreet slave class to help us to understand his Word at the right time. How is this done?—Matthew 24:45-47; Luke 12:42.

[Picture on page 26] Why did the apostle Paul send the Corinthians instructions about disfellowshipping?

Why Some Are Disfellowshipped

Q3) When does disfellowshipping take place?

3) God's servants study the Bible and Christian publications. Jehovah's standards are discussed at their meetings, assemblies, and conventions. So Christians are in a position to know what Jehovah requires of them. Disfellowshipping takes place only if a member of the congregation unrepentantly engages in gross sin.

God’s servants

— only JWs

Christian publications

— Don’t be fooled these are only WTS/JW publications.

Christians

—only JWs

What is a gross sin? Where are the defined or listed in the Bible?

Who decides whether a person is repentant? The elders or God? How do the elders do it since they are imperfect, have no more holy spirit than the rest of the rank and file, and cannot read hearts or minds?

Q4, 5) What Scriptural example of disfellowshipping is presented here, and why was the congregation urged to reinstate the man?

4) Consider a Scriptural example of disfellowshipping. The congregation in Corinth tolerated "such fornication as [was] not even among the nations, that a wife a certain man [had] of his father." Paul urged the Corinthians to "hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved." (1 Corinthians 5:1-5) When disfellowshipped and thus handed over to Satan, the sinner was again part of the Devil's world. (1 John 5:19) His expulsion removed an evil fleshly element from the congregation and preserved its godly "spirit," or dominant attitude.-2 Timothy 4:22; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

Scriptural example of disfellowshipping

— where is the word "disfellowshipping" even mentioned in this account.

Fornication

— exactly what was this man guilty of? Marrying his ex-stepmother? Of having sex with but not marrying his ex-stepmother? Marrying his ex-stepmother although it was a sin only under the Jewish law code. She had to be his ex-stepmother since if she was still married to this man’s father, the sin would have been adultery. Does that mean if a JW married their ex-stepmother or ex-stepfather today, they would be df’d?

*** w75 2/1 p. 75 Is It Wise to Marry a Near Relative? ***

A man in the congregation there was committing fornication, a thing forbidden to Christians. (1 Cor. 6:9, 10) But this was fornication of an especially degraded sort. Why? In that a man had taken his father’s wife. It was apparently not his own mother, but a second wife of his father. This was rightly viewed as a disgraceful act, particularly as it expressed gross disrespect and contempt for the father, as it was an ‘uncovering of his father’s nakedness.’—Lev. 18:8; compare Genesis 35:22; 49:3, 4.

5) Before a very long time had passed, Paul urged the Christians in Corinth to reinstate the wrongdoer. Why? It was so that they might not be "overreached by Satan," said the apostle. The sinner had evidently repented and cleaned up his life. (2 Corinthians 2: 8-11) If the Corinthians refused to reinstate the repentant man, Satan would overreach them in that they would be as hard and unforgiving as the Devil wanted them to be. Very likely, they soon did "forgive and comfort" the penitent man.-2 Corinthians 2:5-7.

Before a very long time had passed….reinstate the wrongdoer

— how long was it, a year, several years? What is the WTS policy? Why does the WTS follow all but the apparent short time before reinstatement?

*** w79 11/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

In Second Corinthians, thought to have been written less than a year later, the apostle Paul urged the congregation to forgive a sinner, evidently referring to that disfellowshiped man who must have repented

*** w63 8/1 p. 473 Proper Viewpoint of Discipline ***

his reinstatement could be considered by the congregation committee after sufficient time had elapsed, which in most cases is at least a year.

*** w98 10/1 p. 18 Imitate Jehovah’s Mercy ***

Although it seems that the wrongdoer in Corinth was reinstated within a relatively short period of time, this is not to be used as a standard for all disfellowshippings.

Q6) Disfellowshipping can accomplish what?

6) What is accomplished by disfellowshipping? It keeps Jehovah's holy name clear of reproach and protects the fine reputation of his people. (1 Peter 1:14-16) Removing an unrepentant wrongdoer from the congregation upholds God's standards and preserves the congregation's spiritual cleanness. It may also bring the unrepentant one to his senses.

Clear of reproach

— where’s Jesus?

Protects the fine reputation of his people (only JWs)—

what about the pedophiles who are allowed to remain in the WTS? www.silentlambs.org

Bring the unrepentant one to his senses

— as all his JW "friends" and relatives no longer talk to him (or her); fire them if an employee; no longer do business with them (only if it impacts financially on the df’d JW, otherwise JWs protect their own bottom line and still keep doing business with the df’d JW).

Repentance Makes a Difference

Q7) What effect did failure to confess his transgressions have on David?

7) Most who sin seriously are truly repentant and are not disfellowshipped from the congregation. Of course, genuine repentance does not necessarily come easily. Consider Israel's King David, who composed Psalm 32. That song reveals that for a time David did not confess his serious sins, likely involving Bath-sheba. The result was that anguish over his sins depleted his vigor, just as summer's dry heat saps moisture from a tree. David suffered physically and mentally, but when he `confessed his transgressions, Jehovah pardoned him.' (Psalm 32: 3-5) Then David sang: "Happy is the man to whose account Jehovah does not put error." (Psalm 32:1, 2) How wonderful it was to experience God's mercy!

Sin seriously…truly repentant…genuine repentance…are not disfellowshipped

OT example

— remember that David not only committed adultery, he had the woman’s husband killed.

Did David confess? Was it only because the prophet Nathan approached him and through an illustration told David about his sin…then he confessed…but not the the priests or how else could David have avoided the punishment under the law for adultery and murder, execution?

That would mean that if a JW today committed murder, confessed and sincerely repented in the opinion of 3 elders, they would not be disfellowshipped? Would the elders turn them into the authorities?

Q8, 9) How is repentance manifested, and how important is it in connection with the reinstatement of a disfellowshipped person?

8) Clearly, then, a sinner must be repentant if he is to receive mercy. However, neither shame nor fear of exposure is repentance. "To repent" means "to change one's mind" with regard to bad conduct, because of regret. A repentant person has "a heart broken and crushed" and wants to 'right the wrong' if possible.-Psalm 51:17; 2 Corinthians 7:11.

Receive mercy

— from God or men?

"right the wrong" if possible—

the WTS will never attempt to right their "wrongs" since they put the blame on the rank and file every time.

9) Repentance is a very important factor in connection with reinstatement into the Christian congregation. A disfellowshipped person is not automatically accepted back into the congregation after a certain amount of time has passed. Before he can be reinstated, his heart condition must undergo a great change. He must come to realize the gravity of his sin and the reproach he brought upon Jehovah and the congregation. The sinner must repent, pray earnestly for forgiveness, and conform to God's righteous requirements. When requesting reinstatement, he should be able to give evidence that he has repented and is producing "works that befit repentance."-Acts 26:20.

Christian congregation

— only JWs, actually only anointed JWs

Evidently df’d people are being allowed back in after a certain amount of time has passed.

Realize gravity of his sin

— pedophile reinstated after 8 months, abandoned wife who finally married although not "scripturally free" although elders knew ex-husband was living with many women reinstated, after 8 years)

Pray earnestly for forgiveness

— to the elders who are the WTS representatives authorized to determine true repentance

God’s or as interpreted by the WTS righteous standards?

Requesting reinstatement

— required to put a written request in the contribution box.

Evidence that he as repented

—must attend all the meetings, sitting in the back not getting there too early and not staying very long afterwards, not talking to anyone, not even the elders that were on their judicial committee. (I have known of df’d people not to be able to even sing the "kingdom" songs and say an audible "amen" at the end of the prayers (that could be regional). One df’d person cannot sit with or talk to another df’d person.

Why Confess Wrongdoing?

Q10, 11) Why should we not just try to hide sin?

10) Some who have sinned might reason: `If I tell anyone about my sin, I may have to answer embarrassing questions and may be disfellowshipped. But if I keep quiet, that can be avoided and nobody in the congregation will ever know.' Such thinking fails to take some important factors into account. What are these?

If I tell anyone about my sin, I may have to answer embarrassing questions

The WTS policy for elders is to ask detailed questions to women about their sexual exploits, how long, how often, did they enjoy it, etc., supposedly to "determine repentance" and whether it is a "practice of sin." Do men get asked those questions? Several new elders I knew cut off those questions immediately although the older elders felt that were being a spoilsport.

11) Jehovah is "a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness and truth, preserving lovingkindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin." Yet, he does correct his people "to the proper degree." (Exodus 34:6, 7; Jeremiad 30:11) If you were to sin seriously, how could you receive God's mercy if you tried to hide your sin? Jehovah is aware of it, and he does not merely ignore wrongdoing.-Proverbs 15:3; Habakkuk 1:13.

But brothers can only be used as MS after minimum one year (usually 5) and ten years as elders (sometimes up to 20)

Yes, God is aware of our sins. So the WTS in hiding theirs demonstrate that they either don't believe in God or feel that "he has left the land."

Q12, 13) What can result from trying to hide wrongdoing?

12) If you have committed a serious sin, confession can help you to regain a good conscience. (1 Timothy 1:18-20) But failure to confess could result in a defiled conscience that could lead you into more sin. Remember that your sin is not just against another human or the congregation. It is against God. The psalmist sang: "Jehovah--in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men. Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one." -Psalm 11:4, 5.

Confession to whom

— the elders or God?

Remember that your sin is not just against another human or the congregation

It is against the ORGANIZATION

13) Jehovah will not bless anyone who hides gross sin and tries to stay in the clean Christian congregation. (James 4:6) So if you have fallen into sin and want to do what is right, do not hesitate to make an honest confession. Otherwise, you will have a guilty conscience, especially when you read or hear counsel regarding such serious matters. What if Jehovah were to withdraw his spirit from you, as he did in the case of King Saul? (1 Samuel 16:14) With God's spirit removed, you could fall into even more serious sin.

Jehovah will not bless anyone who hides gross sin

Do you remember it being said that a certain congregation must be hiding or have people in it hiding gross sin because they aren’t growing in numbers?

Can you imagine, one brother smoking in the garage is preventing all the lack of growth in the Organization today.

With God’s spirit removed (implies that the rank and file do have God’s spirit), you could fall into even more serious sin.

If having God’s spirit didn’t prevent your sin in the first place………..

Trust Your Faithful Brothers

Q14) Why should a wrongdoer follow the counsel of James 5:14, 15?

14) So, then, what should a repentant wrongdoer do? "Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up." (James 5:14, 15) Approaching the elders is one way for a person to "produce fruit that befits repentance." (Matthew 3:8) These faithful and warmhearted men will `pray over him and grease him with oil in Jehovah's name.' Like soothing oil, their Bible counsel will prove to be comforting to anyone who is truly repentant. Jeremiah 8:22.

Do you think when James wrote this he was thinking judicial committees and disfellowshipping? Wasn’t he thinking of people who were discouraged and needed support, not someone who had "sinned seriously"?

Where can you find faithful and warmheated people today in the congregations of JWs, let alone elders?

Q15, 16) How do Christian elders follow the example set by God, as recorded at Ezekiel 34:15, 16?

15) What a loving example was set by our Shepherd, Jehovah, when he freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity in 537 B.C.E. and when he liberated spiritual Israel from "Babylon the Great" in 1919 C.E.! (Revelation 17: 3-5; Galatians 6:16) He thus fulfilled his promise: "I myself shall feed my sheep, and I myself shall make them lie down ... The lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen."-Ezekiel 34:15,16

537 BCE

— a long discussion elsewhere .

1919 CE

— date that the WTS uses to prove that they and only they are approved by God—another long discussion.

The lost one I shall search for….did the elders "search" for you to "bandage" and "strengthen"? Or on the contrary, knowing you must be doing something "wrong."

16) Jehovah fed his figurative sheep, made them lie down in security, and searched for the lost ones. Similarly, Christian shepherds see to it that God's flock is spiritually wellfed and secure. The elders search for sheep who wander away from the congregation. Just as God `bandaged the broken one,' over-seers "bandage" sheep wounded by someone's words or by their own actions. And as God `strengthened the ailing one,' the elders help those who have become spiritually sick, possibly because of personal wrongdoing.

Do the sheep have to call out first before the shepherds go looking?

*** w02 3/1 p. 16 pars. 13-14 How Precious Is the Truth to You? ***

In Scotland some young lambs were grazing in a pasture when one of them strayed to the side of a hillock and tumbled onto a ledge below. It was uninjured, but it was frightened and unable to climb back. So it started to bleat plaintively. Its mother heard it, and she too began to bleat until the shepherd came and retrieved the young lamb. Notice the sequence of events. The lamb called for help, the ewe added her voice to its cries, and the alerted shepherd sprang into action to rescue it.

Those have have become spiritually sick, possibly because of personal wrongdoing.

Many elders I know approach a "weak" JW with the concept that they must have being something "wrong."

How Shepherds Provide Help

Q17) Why should we not hesitate to seek the spiritual help of the elders?

17) The elders gladly comply with this counsel: "Continue showing mercy..., doing so with fear." (Jude 23) By falling into sexual immorality, some Christians have sinned seriously. But if they are truly repentant, they can expect merciful, loving treatment by elders eager to help them spiritually. Including himself, Paul said regarding such men: "Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy." (2 Corinthians 1:24) Therefore, never hesitate to seek their spiritual assistance.

They can expect merciful, loving treatment…by elders eager to help them

Even if a JW is reproved privately (or publicly), a talk will be given (without names but people know since it comes the week after the public announcement) outline the dangers of their sin. JWs are cautious not to associate socially with those JWs as well. The elders are supposed to check with you periodically but I have never seen that happen. Though it is no longer announced, these people are still restricted: cannot answer at the meetings, cannot be in the theocratic ministry school, cannot give prayers at the meetings, cannot be used in those privileges that are exclusively for men in the congregation, cannot serve as auxiliary or regular pioneers. I even know of some congregations that will not let JWs "on restrictions" go from door to door/turn in a time slip.

Q18) How do elders deal with erring fellow believers?

18) If you have sinned seriously, why can you have confidence in the elders? Because they are primarily shepherds of God's flock. (1 Peter 5:1-4) No loving shepherd beats a docile, bleating lamb for hurting itself. When elders deal with erring fellow believers, therefore, it is a matter, not of crime and punishment, but of sin and spiritual restoration where possible. (James 5:13-20) Elders must judge with righteousness and "treat the flock with tenderness." (Acts 20:29, 30; Isaiah 32:1, 2) Like all other Christians, elders are to `exercise justice, love kindness, and be modest in walking with God.' (Micah 6:8) Such qualities are vital when making decisions involving the life and sacred service of "the sheep of [Jehovah's] pasturage."-Psalm 100:3.

Although elders are supposed to be shepherds primarily; few exericse that "privilege." They prefer to be seen giving talks from the platform and conducting book studies, carrying out the administrative duties of elders. The elder meetings mandated to be held 4 times a year (more often if necessary) consist of discussions of whether Brother New’s sideburn is too long or not rather than that Sister Longtimer’s house needs painting.

And as to tenderness, the elders don’t even treat each other with tenderness choosing instead to twist the meaning of "freeness of speech" to mean verbally abusing each other.

[Picture on page 30] Like ancient shepherds, Christian elders "bandage" God's wounded sheep

Q19) With what attitude do Christian elders try to readjust someone?

19 Christian shepherds are appointed by holy spirit and seek to be led by it. If "a man takes some false step before he is aware of it"--as though caught off guard--spiritually qualified men try to "readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness." (Galatians 6:1; Acts 20: 28) With mildness yet firmness for divine standards, the elders try to readjust his thinking, just as a considerate doctor sets a broken limb carefully, to avoid causing needless pain and yet care for the problem. (Colossians 3: 12) Since any extending of mercy would be based on prayer and the Scriptures, the elders' decision would reflect God's view of matters.-Matthew 18:18.

Christian elders…Christian shepherds— only JWs

Appointed by holy spirit…led by it— Appointed by the WTS/FDS/GB and led by it.

With mildness yet firmness— can you imagine yelling or screaming being part of this? Remember this the first time or next time an elder yells at you.

Elders’ decision would reflect God’s view of matters— like the pedophile who was reinstated in only 8 months…….

Q20) When may it be necessary to announce to the congregation that a certain person has been reproved?

20) If a sin is widely known or will undoubtedly become known, an announcement to the congregation would likely be appropriate in order to protect its reputation. An announcement will also be made if the congregation needs to be informed. During the time that an individual who has been judicially reproved is healing spiritually, he might be likened to a person recovering from an injury, which temporarily limits his activity. For a time, very likely it would be beneficial for the repentant one to listen rather than comment at meetings. The elders may arrange for someone to have a Bible study with him to strengthen him where he is weak so that he may again become "healthy in faith." (Titus 2:2) All of this is done in love and is not intended to punish the wrongdoer.

If a sin is widely known or will undoubtedly become known, an announcement to the congregation would likely be appropriate

Known to whom..just other JWs or the community at large. That means that the pregnant girl has to be publicly reproved, but the JW boy who did it could be privately proved.

In days gone by, these announcements were made in all the congregations in the area…that was changed to just the congregation the "wrongdoer" attended….legal pressure?

Restrictions: limits his activities…not intended to punish the wrongdoer!

So can you imagine being the only other brother at a book study? The conductor will have to read, conduct and pray, unless the conductor is a liberal brother who allows sisters to read.

Q21) How may some cases of wrongdoing be handled?

21) Elders can provide spiritual help in various ways. For instance, suppose a brother who in the past had a drinking problem drank too much once or twice when home alone. Or perhaps one who long ago abandoned the use of tobacco smoked privately a time or two in a moment of weakness. Although he has prayed and believes that God has forgiven him, he should seek the help of an elder so that such a sin does not become habitual. An elder or two might handle the situation. However, the elder(s) would inform the presiding overseer, as there may be other factors involved.

Drank too much once or twice when home alone….smoked privately a time or two in a moment of weakness…seek help of elder so that such a sin does not become habitual…an elder (or two) might handle…would inform the presiding overseer. (Hidden meaning…this person would not be dealt with the same as others in regard to disfellowshipping…could be handled privately)

Does that mean if you have sex once or twice when home with just one person…had sex privately with just one person in a moment of weakness………? Is smoking or drinking a different type of sin than sexual immorality?

Keep On Accepting Divine Discipline

Q22, 23) Why should you continue to accept divine discipline?

22) To enjoy God's approval, each Christian must pay attention to Jehovah's discipline. (1 Timothy 5:20) So take to heart any correction received when you study the Scriptures and Christian publications or when you hear counsel presented at meetings, assemblies, and conventions of Jehovah's people. Remain vigilant with regard to the doing of Jehovah's will. Then divine discipline will help you to maintain a spiritual bulwark--a strong wall-like defense against sin.

To enjoy God’s (WTS) approval, each Christian (JW) must pay attention to Jehovah’s (WTS) discipline.

Christian publications— only WTS publications supplied by the FDS

Jehovah’s people— only JWs

23) Accepting divine discipline will enable you to remain in God's love. True, some have been expelled from the Christian congregation, but this need not happen to you if you "safeguard your heart" and `walk as a wise person.' (Proverbs 4:23; Ephesians 5:15) If you are now disfellowshipped, however, why not take steps toward reinstatement? God wants all who have made a dedication to him to worship him faithfully and with "joy of heart." (Deuteronomy 28:47) You can do so forever if you always accept Jehovah's discipline.-Psalm 100:2.

Accepting divine (WTS) discipline will enable you to remain in God’s (WTS) love.

Expelled from the Christian (JW) congregation— now there is a loving term, "expelled"

Disfellowshipped—reinstatement— words not found in the scriptures.

Dedication to him— or the WTS

*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

How Would You Answer?

- Why are some expelled from the Christian congregation?

- What does true repentance involve?

- Why should serious sin be confessed?

In what ways do Christian elders help

Concluding Comments

Two more days to an arbitrary new year. Actually the fiscal year starts in July, the federal year in September (?) the WTS year in September, and then there is the Jewish New Year, Chinese New Year.

Did you survive this article…same old…same old. Makes you wonder why they are bringing out the club that keeps JWs in line. The fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned by every JW you know.

Even being inactive sorts out the people who are your "real" friends. It has freed us to make new friends as well.

Stay connected to those who show they love you. Show love when you can to those who are conflicted. Thanks to all of you for your support.

Love, Blondie

Elsewhere

I wonder if the WTS is having problems with lots of JWs being naughty and then hiding it.

Naaaa... that COULDN'T be the reason for this article. JWs are gawds clean people and would NEEEEEVER do such a thing!

compound complex

Dear Blondie,

Thank you for your coverage of this material. A few points, briefly:

1) I'm reading how the Walsh case (in Franz's ISOCF) seemed to be pivotal in the effectuating of the practice of regular DFing. WT officials questioned by the court were very clear that r&f dubs must accept ALL WT dogma - even what is blatantly false - or be DFed. Under the presidencies of CTR and JFR, there could be verbal reproof, but excommunicating was not at all common.

2) The caring shepherds may, as of this WT article, start checking on me and others. God forbid! Six month's total silence.

3) Did you say VOMIT?!?

Gratefully,

CoCo

OUTLAW

Blondie..You must have been a friggin terror at the Kingdom Hall..LOL!!...OUTLAW

OnTheWayOut

I will warn that this whole article is "vomit" material.

Yes. I am absolutely refusing to go to the K.H. this weekend
for such vomit. Thanks for your thoughts, Blondie.

dedpoet

Blondie, you are right, it is indeed vomit material. I feel pity for the dubs that have to sit through this tomorrow, and joy that I won't be sitting there with them.

Happy new year to you and Irreverent

dedpoet

moomanchu

Can u say Watchtower double talk

W85 12/1 4

Furthermore, if Catholic dogma followed the Bible, the sin-conscious Catholic would confess his sins to God, asking forgiveness through Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:9-2:2) The intercession of a human priest at any stage of "justification" has no foundation in the Bible, no more than the accumulation of merits upon which the doctrine of indulgences is based.-Hebrews 7:26-28.

Did not Jesus authorize his apostles to forgive sins?

There is no record in the Bible of a single instance in which an apostle listened to a private confession and then pronounced absolution. However, the requirements for being forgiven by God are set out in the Bible. The apostles, under the direction of holy spirit, could discern whether individuals were meeting such requirements and could on this basis declare that God had either forgiven them or not forgiven them.

Rs 80-2

What are the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses as to confession?

When a person sins against God

Matt. 6:6-12: "When you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret . . . 'Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified . . . and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.'"

Ps. 32:5: "My sin I finally confessed to you [God], and my error I did not cover. I said: 'I shall make confession over my transgressions to Jehovah.' And you yourself pardoned the error of my sins."

1 John 2:1: "If anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one."

When an individual wrongs his fellowman or when he has been wronged

Matt. 5:23, 24: "If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother, and then, when you have come back, offer up your gift."

Matt. 18:15: "If your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone."

Luke 17:3: "If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him."

Eph. 4:32: "Become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you."

When someone becomes involved in serious wrongdoing and

wants spiritual help

Jas. 5:14-16: "Is there anyone [spiritually] sick among you? Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him [by God]. Therefore openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may get healed."

Prov. 28:13: "He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy."

What if persons who commit sins do not seek help?

Gal. 6:1: "Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted."

1 Tim. 5:20: "Reprove before all onlookers [that is, those who personally know about the matter] persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear."

1 Cor. 5:11-13: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . . . 'Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.'"

moo

Robert222

Supposedly the elders have been told starting January to seek out and call on all disfellowshipped persons in their territory. Perhaps that's why this article? I believe its another way the elders or servants can avoid walking door to door to count their time. The servants i have known are above such labor.

noko59

Wow! How could one even listen to that stuff and not get spiritually darken. There is only one gate keeper and I am assured it isn't the watchtower (darktower) association.

Honesty

I will warn that this whole article is "vomit" material.

Thanks, Blondie.

I took your word for it.

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 12-31-06 WT Study (Discipline)

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