Why do apostates lie about where they get their information?

by slimboyfat 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • 2112

    Why can't a JW study the Bible and make their own mind up about what God wants us to believe, and how to live. Why do they have to study the Watchtower and other publications instead. Why can't they even listen to opposing views. And why do they even reject their own publications when asked by a nonJW to read them?

    Why can't you and other JW practice what you preach and hold your self and your own religion to the same standard you want to condime every other person by?

    Oh that's right your god wants you to be an arrogant SOB.

  • Death to the Pixies
    Death to the Pixies

    I have noticed that too, especially from Jws turned Evangelical. In a recent discussion, a fella painted It like they actually feel they woke up one day and decided John 17:3-5 speaks of an eternal relationship in the God-head and it has nothing to do with some silly Ron Rhodes "Answers to Jws" book. Or how they portray the idea that they, thru diligent study of scripture, believe in the hypostatic union. Right. I think X-Jws, do not want people to think they traded one set of blinders in for the next, so their new found freedom, to them, has to be because of thier independent study of scripture and WT literature. No one wants to publicly admit (that is in real life away from their computers) that the internet is what shaped their opinions, it is not cool zeus. "Internet" is a dirty word when it comes to accuracy in political circles, so I think people stay away from that for that reason. I mean how many people in the 1990's to 2000's would cite the Wts policy on beastality in the 70's as a reason for thier new view of Jws if it were not for Ray Franz? Probably only a dog-humper or someone who married a dog-humper. But, we see this quoted all the time on various forums.

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    Dear Slimboy,

    I just got through reading your thread, and haven't had a chance to read the others comments. So this may have already been covered. But when you are a faithful JW, it has been pounded into your head to reject anything that smacks of "apostacy". Certainly if the person comes right out and tells you where they got the info. (ex: the internet) it automatically puts up a wall between you and the person you are trying to reach. At times it may be appropriate to do what you have suggested. But for sure, there are many times that call for much more caution. And this is true even when you are speaking with the elders. Many of those once serving left because of what they have found out too. If their hearts are right, and their hearts are ready, God will draw them out, no matter what their position. So, some want to try and reason with even them at their judicial meetings.

    However..for those of us who are trying to reach the hearts and minds of our brain dead loved ones and friends still in, the subtle approach is much more effective. 9 out of 10 times, the messenger is always attacked by those who are told the facts. Not the message. That being the case, it is wise on the part of the person who is trying to reach the heart of another to reason with them. Blasting them with everything at once, including where the info. came from will only back them into a corner, and the wall of reason will go up. JWs are scared to death of "apostates". They are told they only want to destroy your faith and have nothing to offer you. (They know nothing of freedom of conscience.) That is how fear keeps most from examining anything we have to show them.

    My own personal experience is that in which my parents who raised me in the organization, started having questions on the whole blood issue, when my mothers father, also a witness, died for refusing blood. For my father, it was that, and the whole molestation issue. They started fading and in time I thought of them as being very spiritually weak. One day they came to me with some of their findings, and told me why they would not be attending anymore. I was devistated. Because they were even considering leaving, coupled with the fact they were bringing to my attention many issues that I had never heard of before, I closed mindedly concluded for two years, that they had gotten into apostate literature on the internet. Although I had no proof.

    It was true, like you said, many, found the info. on the internet and then checked it out for themselves. But it is a good thing they did not tell me that, even though I suspected it. Had they, I may have put up a even higher wall and perhaps may have been even more determined never to fall into their trap..as I then viewed it. You see I knew my parents were good people, and would never leave Jehovah and Jesus on purpose. (That what you believe when a JW leaves, you cannot have a relationship with them without the organization.) I wanted to believe they may come back, and that there was still hope for them. Had they out and out told me where they got their info. like you are suggesting, I would have dug my heals in more, and attacked the messenger, rather then the message.

    Of course, not all situations call for such reasoning. But I know there are many out there that feel a softer more gentle approach will get them further in trying to help get their loved ones out.

    Remember the scripture: "..therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."-Matt. 10:16


    Lady Liberty

  • LittleToe

    In my own case I moved away from WTS doctrine merely through reading the bible, especially the books attributed to John and Paul. It wasn't until after I decided I was going to leave that I looked online for exJWs and found this site. The information I then received blew out of the water any remaining misconception that the WTS was innocent or even merely gullable.

    To answer the original question I would counter-question:

    • why are JWs not upfront with their beliefs of shunning; 1914; and blood transfusion when they first knock on peoples' doors?

    Simply because this is not what they want people to focus on. They will introduce people to those subjects at a later time, when more is invested. While they will address objections concerning such topics if they are raised, it is preferable to avoid them as they are uncomfortable.

    • why does the WTS not quote its sources where there is a clear influence from the beliefs of others in their materials?

    I believe it is simply because they want to appear original, and since the rank and file JW is unlikely to have read the same material due to being discouraged from doing so, the ruse is unlikely to be uncovered.

    I would add to Gary's comments about Slim not being a troll. I know him personally. He just doesn't appear particularly interested in making any friends here, prefering to treat the Internet as an opportunity for anonymously playing devil's advocate. I think it's a bit of a shame as he'd have so much to give and to gain, but each to their own

  • V

    Of course I get all sorts of information from the internet, COC, and other "apostate" sources.

    But I do not believe what they reference from the WTS publications and statements until I see that WTS reference myself.

    Until then it is just a rumour.

    I have no moral issue presenting the WT publications as the source of 'where I get my information'. For that matter the WT quotes are the source of the apostate references anyway.

    Undermining factual information is a dirty trick of lawyers and cults. When they fight fair, so will I.

  • Blueblades

    Adhominem. That's how you start your thread. You know quite well what the word "Apostate" refers to in the scriptures. It has nothing to do with disagreements with what the Watchtower Society teaches. Hence, calling any person an apostate is to " Adhominem" , attack the person, rather than debate the issues at hand. Gathering information from sources that include historians, scholars, and direct quotes from "The Society" does not make one an "Apostate".

    "The Society" itself has taught its followers to use "Theocractic Warfare" when they are being questioned about their teachings. When what they are really doing is "Lying" under the guise that not everyone is entitled to the truth. Yet when someone questions a certain teaching they are automatically labeled, "Apostate".

    It is not lies when questioned about where so and so got his/her information when being adhominemed by the Eders. It is trying to address the issues at hand by just sticking to the information no matter where it comes from. Even when the Elders say that information gathered outside the Watchtower makes one an apostate, what does it make them when the information gathered come from the Watchtower's own mouth.

    Jesus said: 'Out of your own mouths you are condemned". So, I ask you SFB. Where does the Watchtower Society get its information that it teaches and prints? Isn't some of their material coming from secular sources out side the organization? Does that make them apostates, according to their definition of what make an apostate?


  • steve2
    When they fight fair, so will I.

    V has articulated the most potent answer to slimboyfat's mischievous questions...all the stronger for being expressed in fewer than ten words!

  • james_woods

    Simple, really, SlimBoyFat.

    We are using our "theocratic strategy".!!!

    I bet you haven't told your local elders where you are getting your information, either.

  • poppers

    Merry Christmas, SBF, and a Happy New Year. Best of luck in the future.

  • Stephanus
    When they fight fair, so will I.

    V has articulated the most potent answer to slimboyfat's mischievous questions...all the stronger for being expressed in fewer than ten words!

    Barry Dawson is the martial arts teacher at the Cougar Arts Federation. Here's his take on how to win a fight:

    Barry says, "A lot of kids come into our school because they're wanting to kick someone's arse. I don't teach that. I usually instruct that you should kick the knee or groin. Then, when they're on the ground, rolling around, you can consider the arse."

Share this