Why do apostates lie about where they get their information?

by slimboyfat 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974

    When did Jesus ever fail to take on a Saducee, Pharisee or questioner of even the most dubious credentials? When did Jesus turn away from persons of low repute (tax collectors, prostitutes, publicans, etc)???

    You see, the Jesus whom the JW's claim as their king is only a counterfeit disguise for what they really are. Jehovah's Witnesses are agents of intellectual tyrrany. They quash debate on a level playing field by attacking the character of their accusers and marginalizing them to silence the truth of their arguments.

    They are entirely unlike Jesus. They allow no freedom of expression. They allow no honest debate.

    Jesus welcomed dissent because he used it as a tool of teaching when he answered all queries (even clever trick questions) with straight answers of plain lucidity.

    JW's cannot do this. They stumble over their own history of False Prophecy which clearly identifies them as False prophets. They can't escape this identifier. They cannot pass God's test of the False Prophet. No wonder they run and hide and cry foul when the truth starts hitting the fan.

    This is so true...their approach is childlike and immature; The Jesus of the bible stood upto his challengers and through his vast knowledge and intelligence successfully defended his corner. He might not have converted everyone but at least he was prepared to stand his ground.

    Jehovahs Witnesses show no such courage of their convictions instead as you have so articulately pointed out, they run a mile screaming...'hes telling lies....dont believe him'.

    Gary

  • steve2
    steve2

    Slimboyfat's question ably illustrates how easy it is to reduce the complexity of an issue to its lowest common denominator:

    Simply tar everyone with the same brush and you've dispensed with the need to think something through on its own merits.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    slimboyfat, I admit I read Apostate literature and that's why I got out of the cult. The Apostate literature I read was the publications of the Watchtower Society. Wasted the best years of my life in it but trying to make up for now by doing everything the Society said we couldn't do.

  • LoverOfTruth
    LoverOfTruth

    Perhaps we should go easy on slimboyfat. This is probably How he Gets His Time in for the Watchtower.

  • cyberguy
    cyberguy

    Slimboyfat,

    I assume you are a young person, and never lived through the 1960’s and early 1970’s in the WT. If you had been you’d never make the ridiculous remarks you are now making. I grew up in the Tower, and in the late 1960’s I was in my early teen years. Regarding the 1975 expectation, it was played-up big-time! I mean, big-time! It was on everyone’s mind! I don’t recall the KM bringing it out in those years (I doubt it did), but the FALSE teaching about 1975 was brought out in books, brochures, and conventions of the time. And yes, everyone was in expectation that “something” was about to happen before 1975. That’s why there was such a huge influx of baptisms just prior to 1975! (I got baptized then!)

    I think you’re probably a good person, just with a little head-spin right now, and I’d suggest to cool-off and contemplate your words before posting. You’re going through denial and it takes time to reflect on information you’ve heard and to sort everything out! And have your read Carl Johnson’s book? I know that when the original manuscript that circulated Bethel Writing Department, there was NOT ONE REPONSE. At the time they had nearly 100 people working in that department. A good friend of mine circulated the original manuscript, with a signing sheet. He said there was absolutely no response. Of course not! The 1914 teaching is a bogus farce.

    Please research this subject more carefully before pontificating your brain-farts!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Keeping ones sources secret isn't unique to the wt defectors that choose to do so.

    S

  • heretic
    heretic

    Whenever Im asked for example how I heard of the UN issue which I brought up my reply is it doesnt matter

    I understand APOSTATE is a trigger word and they are trying to dismiss my point as being from the demonised crazy ramblings of heretics

  • Jim_TX
    Jim_TX

    "...I think I am a lot less self-righteous now than when I believed what the Witnesses teach. "

    (meaning that you disagree with what the JW's teach and believe... therefore... )

    This statement - defines you as an apostate by the JW definition. Welcome to the crowd.

    Regards,

    Jim TX

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I think slim has an interesting point that is worthy of some discussion. For many of us, books like those from Jonsson, Penton, Franz, and others are the very sources that presented the evidence and questions that become confronted in a JC, or in our decision-making process of leaving the WTS. But the answer to slim's question is quite obvious...it would otherwise be impossible to introduce the matter for discussion, and the social dynamic set up by the Watchtower Society is one that severely penalizes complete openness in this regard. In a setting in which dissenters or questioners are disempowered from freely controlling their discourse, such an ethical "dilemma" (relatively minor IMHO) can only be expected. Without a "white lie" as to sources and one's prior reading habits, the discourse could not even take place unless the dissenter wants to risk facing the reprecusions. The conversation would instantly turn from genuine issues about the WTS and about its teachings (which are worth discussing) to YOU, whether YOU have been obeying the Society's "counsel" on reading literature critical about the Society.

    I think slim has a fair question because I've faced it myself on my way out (back in 1990 or so). I had lots of printouts and xeroxes of old Watchtower literature and what not, evidence of doctrinal vacillations, and other things that have bothered me. Of course, I knew I would be asked "Where did you get this stuff?" So I thought I could maybe reply, "I got it from the Internet." Now, you must understand that in 1989 and 1990, the internet was not this big boogeyman it is today. Back then, it was thought of as strictly educational (a resource of information, just like you can get medical info on Medline) and imho a "safe" source I could mention. So I had to ponder that question, because I knew I could not even use this stuff had I not had a "cover" ... otherwise I would've been DF'd in a flash. Fortunately, it never came to that because I was able to leave on my own, fading through successive moves. But what finally convinced me that the WTS was not "God's organization" was not just the stuff I found already prepared in Jonsson, Penton, et al., but what I observed myself and what I researched myself. It was my own original research on the evidence of crucifixion and the early church fathers (such that the Trinity broshure insulted my intelligence when it came out) that I realized for good that the Society was not intellectually honest and "truthful". And I think almost anyone, if they invest the time in doing so, can similarly research almost any issue and come to similar conclusions as those prepackaged in "apostate" books.... especially now since so much info -- in fact, actual Watchtower publications from the past -- freely available on the internet (tho, ironically, now you can no longer cite the "Internet" as a source). So I understand why some questioners want to purchase their own copies of old publications on eBay and other sources (in my day, there was Bethel Antiquarian books), in order to be able to introduce things into discussion.

    It is also worth pointing out that the Society itself has been less than up front about its use of "apostate" sources, in particular, the thesis by Jonsson. I have done a discourse analysis of the Appendix to the Kingdom Come book, and it is very easy to demonstrate the intertextuality between the two works, and the Society's own use of Jonsson in their response (including some verbatim parallels in wording). But instead of identifying Jonsson as a source, they systematically merge him with "safe" secular historians and scholars. This erasure of Jonsson as a source is motivated by the same social constraint that dissenters find themselves restrained by....i.e. the Watchtower characterization of "apostate" sources as "poison" and their use as a potentially disfellowshipable offense.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    When I need to buy a new car I go to a dealer. I don't try to reinvent the internal combustion engine. I don't have the time or resources. No one criticizes me for doing so.

    Watchtower lies can be exposed by anyone with a good Watchtower "theocratic library" if they have the time to research. Unfortunately, the Watchtower doesn't list its lies and errors in it's index. Since some "apostates" have already done much of the work, why reinvent the wheel?

    The Watchtower published lies. "Apostate" literature merely showed me where to find those lies so I could verify it for myself without having to devote months, if not years, to research.

    W

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit