I am reminded of something one of my teachers ( He had been to Vietnam) said:
"Nobody wins a battle by dying for your country, you win by making the other guy die for his."
Who thinks Killing or Dying for your country is a good Idea?
by new boy 79 Replies latest jw friends
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restrangled
"Nobody wins a battle by dying for your country, you win by making the other guy die for his."
I think this was Bush's idea, but it didn't work......our sons are now dying for the other guy.
r.
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BONEZZ
My dad was a Marine in WW2 and was on many hot spots (Saipan, Okinawa, Tarawa) and became a hardcore JW afterwards. He later saw how corrupt the Dubs were and DA'd. But as a child I used to ask him, "If everyone in the US and allies had been JW's wouldn't Hitler have won and killed all the JW's?" He always replied that, "Jehovah wouldn't allow that."
Well if Jehovah didn't allow Hitler to win, then it means he supported, or at least allowed the anihlation of Hitler thru the means of military might from the opposing sides...afterall HE controls everything and is positioning everything for the FINAL War...correct?
And even if HE didn't have anything to do with it, you should thank our military who sacrificed so much to defeat Hitler so he wouldn't eliminate the JW's and other minority and ethnic groups.
As a Dubbie child I always felt (& still do) that we owed the soldiers from WW2 a great debt of gratitude otherwise we could have been marching into giant ovens here in the States.
This has nothing to do with phoney-baloney wars such as Bush's where I agree with others, stick them in the front line or better yet, their children. I'll send my kids when I see the Bush twins on the front lines in Iraq.
I also would have no problem putting a bullet in the head of someone who has come into my home to do harm to me or my family. The same goes for protecting the country where I live. We just have to keep from being bamboozeled by corrupt politicians and corporate interests.
-BONEZZ
PS. Wasn't it Patton that something to the effect that..."nobody is a hero by dieing for their country...make the other poor dumb bastard die for his."
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Forscher
"Nobody wins a battle by dying for your country, you win by making the other guy die for his."
But Sun Tzu wrote that "Supreme excellence in the commader consists in attaining victory without committing ones troops to battle." I think any reasonable person would prefer that to what Patton said.
Forscher
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Jourles
OK ok. I didn't specify enough. This is the type of scenario I was thinking of but neglected to state in the beginning......
If I was in a bank, on a bus, on a plane, etc., and hijackers, robbers, banditos or whoever threatened to kill everyone unless one person was willing to sacrifice their lives on behalf of everyone else, I would step up.
Derek:
Why on earth would you value the life of a complete stranger above your own? You must have very low self-esteem.
It's obvious you've never met me or even know me for that matter. It's not that I don't value my life over a stranger - I do. But in some cases, the taking of one life to save many others, I feel, is by far the best gift you can give. Let's say for instance 20 of us from JWD meet up in a pub. We all come from a huge mix of cultures and hold various religious and atheistic views(you can even throw in some hardcore Bush followers - which I really can't stand all that much). A real wacko storms in and holds everyone hostage. He is out of his mind and is threatening to kill everyone in the pub. He does give one alternative though. He says, "I'll let everyone go right now if one of you steps forward and is willing to let me kill you instead of killing all of you. Once that person steps forward, the rest of you are free to leave. But, if no one steps forward within one minute, everyone will die." What would you do in this scenario, Derek? I believe I have already stated what my course of action would be. And if someone doesn't like my decision, that's too bad. I would much rather be remembered for saving someone else's life than being a cowardly narcissist.
In the end, if I'm dead, I'm not gonna care anymore. Sure, my death might bring about a temporary period of extreme mourning for some, but in time, I'll just be a memory. It's not like the world will stop revolving when I'm gone. It's a shame that some people think that will happen when they die.
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lovelylil
Tetra,
Its not that you are having to remind me as a Christian not to live by the sword, I agree with this and I myself am against War. But, not everyone in this world is a Christian or an athiest like yourself who would not hurt or kill another person. That is the reality of the situation. I agree if all felt like this, then we would have no more wars. But now, go and try to convince the rest of the world to do the same thing? Do you see what I mean?
This is a catch 22 - you are saying the U.S. should be the example and send all the military home and refuse to go to war (I guess we should be pacifists?) and then I am saying unless every other country does the same thing, it will not work. Not everyone has a good heart and wants to have peace. I don't care if they are Christians, athiest, buhdists, whatever. Most of mankind is concerned with their own power and wealth. And they are concerned with themselves and not their fellow man. While I am with you 100% - living in the current world this is just not possible to do unless you, youself can change the heart conditions of everyone else in the world.
And the fact of the matter is Jesus did not have anyone intervene in his death because it HAD to happen the way it did. And while Jesus seemed to be anti war - his father definately was NOT anti war. And sometimes he had the Isrealites kill people, even whole nations. So how is it that I am not being a good Christian for stating otherwise?
You seem to think the U.S. can just go to other countries and tell them lets all just get along now and we can throw our weapons out, what do you think they will say? Mankind itself will NEVER bring peace about on the earth. Not unless their hearts are completely changed. Lilly
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acadian
I don't kill for any country.
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eyeslice
Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori - it is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country - what a lie!
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares 2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest 3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots 4
Of tired, outstripped 5 Five-Nines 6 that dropped behind.Gas! 7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets 8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime 9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes 10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, 11 choking, drowning.If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud 12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest 13
To children ardent 14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori. 15 -
frankiespeakin
Many people have the arguement that we have to fight war because the other guy or country will just come over and kill every one if we don't stand up and fight. They use these type of arguements:
1) What if every one believed as you do and did not fight in war to suport thier country?
Answer: If every beleived in non violence, there would be no wars.
2) What if every one in the US beleived in non violence, wouldn't that open them up to invasion and everyone in the US being put to death?
Answer: When one country takes over another country they don't usually put every one to death. And it is very very unlikely that a country like the US will become completely non violent, ahead of another country or the rest of the world. The shift to non violence would not happen independantly to the US and not to the rest of the world. We are all the same basically and the change if it was to happen in man's consciousness would be gradual in all countries until it is universal. So no need to worry about being a sitting duck. We are all hooked up to the collective human consciousness ( or unconscious is more correct ).( read the 100th monkey).
Individually though, the change has to be made by us individually, we can only change ourselves to be non violent we can not change anybody but ourselves, and this comes from understanding. Eventually what does happen is that the human species reaches a critical mass where almost all reach this level of consciousness with the occasional odd ball. It is just like human intelligence, it seems to be universal, with no race smarter than another, we are all the same species that can interbreed.
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tetrapod.sapien
i see what you mean lilly, and i used to feel the same way. i know i said i was done with the thread, but i am actually learning as i write and read here, so i will retract that statement. thank you.
But now, go and try to convince the rest of the world to do the same thing? Do you see what I mean?
yes, but i am trying anyways. sitting back and waiting for the other guy to change is not going to effect any change. if he won't change, that's his loss, not mine as well.
and then I am saying unless every other country does the same thing, it will not work.
but who is going to start the ball rolling? the weakest country on earth? or the most powerful?
if the US sent all their troops home tomorrow, it would start the ball rolling. if they then took all the money that they spent on military, and spent it on education and technology and world aid for the poor, i am not sure i buy that people would still be coming over here to bomb us. you'd be surprised what a huge gesture like that would do in the minds and hearts of the so-called enemies.
i do not deal in past and future. it is no help for me to say: 'well, too bad the americans didn't act differently towards the world for the last 200 years. and too bad the english didn't for the last 700.' and it's no help for me to say: 'well, someone else in the future will start the ball rolling, like maybe my children, or their children, or god, or whatever.'
i totally agree with you that it would take a major change in the hearts of all people. but this is why i, and others, are doing this with such earnestness. a change in the hearts of all, means starting with a change in the hearts of some.
i already know how the world works. it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. and you know why i feel this way, right? why i am standing up and doing, instead of not doing, right? it's because i don't have god, but i also love all living things equally and passionately.
i see what you're saying. and i'm sorry if i seem pedantic, or angry about this, or even rude. but if you knew me before, and compared it with now, you would see why i believe in the power of positive change in individual hearts.
about yhwh: as long as you do not use yhwh as an excuse to go to war, and to be violent, i have no problem with you, or others, talking about his violent ways. but as soon as he is used as an excuse for our own human behavour (regardless of his behavour), i have a problem with that.
And sometimes he had the Isrealites kill people, even whole nations. So how is it that I am not being a good Christian for stating otherwise?
you said it. i didn't. perhaps i am not sure who i am talking with anymore here. now i am not sure that you really do agree with me 100%, as you say you do.
if this god of yours does exist, then i would like to talk with him about my views on peace, and oneness, and equality, and unity, and last but not least: love.
but if you are willing to work towards peace by concentrating on the areas of our belief systems that overlap, then so am i.
take care,
tetra