Astonishing decline of Christianity in Britain

by slimboyfat 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow
    Alpha is a failure

    You can't know that for certain.

    I don't personally attend church, one false religion was more than enough for me, and I am an atheist now anyway, but some of my work colleagues do attend, and they are adamant that Alpha is reasonably successful in this area at least. Unless you have specific figures to prove this particular initiative a failure, I don't see how you can brand it as such.

    I'd love to know how many baptisms into the wts were under 15, but they don't publish those figures, they just add them all up, whatever there age.

  • crazyblondeb
    crazyblondeb
    But I sense an emerging need for spirituality, and depth.

    I agree with this. I have also seen a growth in neopaganism, new age, particularly wicca. There are alot of ways to find your own spirituality than in a church. I have yet to see any true spirituality with Jehovah's Witnesses, especially!!

    Just my twocents

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    Slim:

    You seem intent on quoting all these figures to prove something, but it isn't clear what. Is your message that JWs are really growing, despite the desire of many ex-dubs to see the organization crawl off and die? Or is it that the JWs are bucking the trend among all other churches and therefore they must be the "right" religion, which is the argument they themselves have often made?

    We agree that organized religions are losing members at a rapid pace. There are lots of reasons for that, too many to list here. The JWs have been impacted by that same trend. They are no longer posting large increases year over year. Further, they are no longer bringing in large numbers of converts from the adult population, except in some third world countries where the promise of inheriting a trouble-free perfect world of material abundance in the very near future resonates with the masses.

    There is a church here that has 5,000 members. Ten years ago, there were 150 congregants. A charismatic young preacher grew the church 30-fold. Does that mean he "has the truth?" California is full of brand new "warehouse" churches, attended by thousands of people every week. These churches did not exist a few years earlier. Is this a trend? Does it "mean" anything? Would you conclude that church membership is on the rise? And, if so, why are JWs in California not seeing the same kind of increase at their KHs?

    Numbers are meaningless without context and can be used to prove whatever you want them to.

    The numbers I like to use are these: All of the Kingdom Halls I've very been associated with have about the same number of members now as 15 years ago, despite the fact they are located in areas of the Western U.S. where the overall population has doubled or almost tripled in the same time span. I can only conclude that the dubs are losing their influence and, in fact, shrinking, even though if you took a census they might be up a point or two. They could post world-wide figures tomorrow showing 50% growth over last year, and it wouldn't change my perspective one bit. As far as I can see, they're in trouble in this part of the world.

    And not just because their numbers are stagnant. The quality of dub life has eroded substantially. We recently had a visitor, a young woman in her late 20s who was raised a dub. Father a "prominent" elder, family used to be called "pillars" in the congo. She and her siblings have all left home and moved far away. All three of them have lived life on their terms, none of them is married to a dub, only one of them goes to meetings (sometimes) and her own children are not active at all, despite having been raised JWs. One of the young women's siblings is df'd, and the father will not allow his wife (the woman's mother) to go and visit her and her three grandchilden. As a result, their marriage is a sullen affair marked by constant fighting. The young woman sat in our living room and caught us up on "whatever happened to" all the young people she was raised with. One after another, as the soap opera continued, they have fallen into marginalized lives, and only a very few of them are "doing well in the truth," as she puts it. I listened to this history and could only think to myself: My God, what a tremendous failure this whole experiment was.

    So, Slim, preach on! You lost me at "astonishing."

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Lilly,

    House churches are included. Brierley went to great lengths to include all sorts of unusual groups even you would probably not think of - hospitals, schools, house churches, new churches, independent churches - you name it, they are included! The new house churches did increase in number during the 1980s and 1990s, but have since started to decline:

    1979 ---- 64,000

    1989 ---- 167,000

    1998 ---- 200,500

    2005 ---- 183,6000

    There are dramatic variations within the new and house churches since affiliation is very volatile and the various groupings go up and down like yo-yos with various splits and controversies and alliances and so on - but overall they are in decline too. Newfrontiers, Association of Vineyard Churches and Salt and Light all showed increases. Pioneer, Ichthus and Covenant/Ministry Without Borders all showed decreases outweighting the increases of the other groups.

    Personally I think they are looking at mainstream churches only and we can all agree they are at a decline.

    You are wrong. The figures are for all church groups combined - including charismatic, evangelical, house churches, new churches and independent churches along with the traditional liberal churches. Christianity as a whole is in decline in Britain - not just the liberal "mainline" churches. The best you can say is that there are some small fringe evangelcial groups that are not declining as fast and a few registering modest growth. Even then you often find that such groups as have a modest increase largely comprise immigrants and are anomalous.

    Slim

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Willyloman,

    Or is it that the JWs are bucking the trend among all other churches and therefore they must be the "right" religion, which is the argument they themselves have often made?

    The highlighted portion is indeed the point I am trying to make - only not quite so strong. They are doing better, that's for sure, perhaps not quite "bucking the trend", since they are not doing as well as they used to, and have declined slightly in Britain in recent years

    I do not believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the "right" religion, and I certainly don't believe figures could prove such is case.

    For what it is worth, I don't believe in any "right" religion. I rejoice at the decline of all religion!

    Secularization is one of the most important major sociological trends of the time we live in. It is on that level that I find these developments "astonishing" and indeed exciting.

    It is as T. S. Eliot prophetically put it in Choruses from the Rock:

    But it seems that something has happened that has never happened before;
    though we know not just when, or why, or how, or where.
    Men have left GOD not for other gods, they say, but for no god;
    and this has never happened before.

    Slim

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Fullofdoubtnow,

    If the rapid decline of Christian groups as a whole in Britain in spite of initiatives such as Alpha is not enough evidence of its failure, then I really have to wonder what you are looking for. I suppose you could say that just running such courses is a success in itself, and getting a few to attend who make no real impact on the overall decline is some sort of triumph. But if that is the kind of 'success' we are talking about, then it seems rather shallow.

    Slim

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow
    If the rapid decline of Christian groups as a whole in Britain in spite of initiatives such as Alpha is not enough evidence of its failure, then I really have to wonder what you are looking for.

    I'm not looking for anything slim. You wrote Alpha off as a failure, but didn't, or maybe couldn't, say why. I just asked if you had any proof to back up your assertion, that's all. I have yet to see you present any to prove what you said.

    Incidentally, I couldn't care less whether Alpha is a success or not.

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    That's a shame...the number one indicator for charitable giving is if one is a regular attender of Church ;) not kingdom halls though

    Willyoman, its not just ex-dubs who'd like to see the WT crash and burn ;)

    I'd like to know the figures on Scientology in Britain Slimboy :)

    And Kaballah come to think of it


    thanks!

  • new boy
    new boy

    Well its the information age!

    It seems the more informed are putting aside the stupid believes of there forfathers "the my country (or religion) right or wrong" stuff just doesn't wash anymore!---------------People are just getting smarter-------------and the Brits (on the whole) are very quick,smart and inform group of people as we all kmow.

    Sad as it seems the less informed (as a whole) 3rd world countrys however are taking a little longer to come to see what the churches are doing.

  • crazyblondeb
    crazyblondeb
    I do not believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the "right" religion

    I think that's the best thing you have ever said!!!!! I can finally agree with you on something!!

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