just another religion

by teejay 42 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  DannyBear

  Tj,

  Thanks for your comments.

  ***She expressed a reverence, not just for 'home' or country, but for the flag itself, "because of what it represents," she said.***

  Yes I have heard and myself made comments such as this one, when I was a jw. In fact I believe that a majority of active jw's then as well as now, have respect for the country in which they reside. That is why I have taken such exception to Tallyman's campaign to discredit, and even falsely accuse them of sedition or wanting to 'overthrow the American government'. Such a ridiculous accusation, it is simply not true. Goofy interpretation of the bible, but jw's as terrorists (as we now define them) not by a long strech.

  ***While White America loves America for what it has given them, Black America loves America because of what it promises. We love the IDEA of it... that it doesn't really matter what you look like, what you have, where you live... you will be respected, honored, loved and the laws will treat you as well as everyone. Of course it does matter, but there's always the promise that it won't.***

  I can see that you (collective) might find it very easy to adopt this premise. But I must add some personal experience of my own (big white honkie that Iam). While living in the south in the mid-late 60's, I saw first hand the rude reality of segregation, both from within the communities I resided, but also among the congregations of jw's.

  I observed first hand many black's still living without power, running water, and really just what we now consider basics, who displayed a sense of pride and integrity, almost above all the 'shit' they had to put up with. They were, it seemed in majority, the older folks who had witnessed World War1 and 2. They told stories that reflected a pride in service to the country. Even though some of those expressions may have been perfunctory responses, those who opened up to me 'trusting' the 'bible' work, never intimated a lack of hope, but seemed to be in high spirits about the then very recent inroads made regarding 'civil rights'.

  Alot of the above, was of course based upon the fact that it was a very liberating/fearful time for all blacks in this country. But what I came away with was a real sense, that these people felt a real sense of liberation and freedom, about the change in America. Today many blacks almost degrade the efforts of those who made it happen, by constantly bringing up events so far back in history, that it is hard for anyone with a sympathetic ear to back or even suggest that we 'whites' need to do soul searching, more penance for all the 'wrongs' committed by our (white ancestors), instead I would rather here black commentator's like Ken Hamblin (controversial as he is) setting a tone of independence and pride, wherein he encourages his brother's/sister's of skin tone, to pursue the now almost fully open door in quest of the American dream. Truly prior to 1965-66 those door's were of all intents closed. I highly reccomend reading his book 'Pick a Better Country'.

  I don't know how I got off on this tangent, but I did.

  Danny
• 

  DannyBear

  Ginny,

  The closest you came to giving a direct answer to my question: ***If you agree, then I must follow up with...what should we do about it?***

  ****While I don't agree with your basic premises, I do agree that terrorist behavior must be stopped.****

  Yet even after you admit this, you still want cake to eat:

  ****My point was that whatever analogies you choose to think about and grasp this situation will affect the solutions and outcomes you imagine. If the world is like a big sporting competition, there will be winners and losers. If the world is like a human body, we will try to heal it. If it is like a business, we may try mediation and arbitration. If it is like a family, we may try counseling or tough love. I nowhere suggested that we do nothing.****

  Every sentence has merit, except you still leave the question unanswered....what shall we do Ginny?

  Why must we alway's feel compelled to be so magnanamous and inclusive, are all of you who espouse this worldly, politicaly correct view so indoctrinated by the socialist's who have reigned supreme in the educational systems, the entertaiment industry, are you so mesmerized by their apparent 'goodness' and 'humanitarian outlook'....that you cannot fess up a straight ahead answer to the question that still goes begging....what do we do about those who want to kill you, yes you Ginny, wherever and whenever they may have the chance?

  Danny
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Dannybear,

  What would you do if you had a terrorist in your own family? This person carried a gun in her purse, threatened to kill you, your father, and your sisters and bury you under the house where no one would find you. She damaged the things your father valued. He planted trees; she broke off the branches. He valued his car; she keyed obscenities into the paint. He valued his dignity; she publicly humiliated him. When members of the family acted as a human strait-jacket, she begged for a cigarette and then burned their arms with it.

  Meet my mother, Danny.

  My mother had some valid complaints against my father. She also projected old childhood wounds on him.

  I had her committed.

  This is the analogy I personally use to grasp the current situation. I am part of the human family. The men responsible for this act are fanatics. Their thinking is warped. I hope terrorists are strait-jacketed by every means possible--political isolation, freezing financial assets, physical incarceration. I also hope that the world will treat the mindset that caused the terrorism.

  My mother was treated, and while she can still be manipulative and coercive, she is no longer a terrorist. I realize not all terrorists will respond to therapy. I hope they are restrained.

  Ginny
• 

  tdogg

  Sooner or later, sooner I suppose, terrorists will have to be 'physically incarcerated' in a six foot hole. It unfortunaly comes down to that in this world, it has since the dawn of man.

  When men are at odds and the stakes are survival people will die. When people A want to kill people B, the existance of both are mutually exclusive and people B will have to protect themselves from people A or be killed. I would like the 'human family' idea to be true but it isnt. People can get along in general but sometimes we are enemies-mortal enemies.
• 

  DannyBear

  Ginny,

  Thanks for your background comments, and for answering my question.

  I really think we all have 'terrorists' in our own home. The 6,000+ victims of this homeland invasion, will have a ripple effect into almost every corner of this and the 80 other nations victimized.

  That is exactly my point. We for really the first time, have experienced the violation or our home, our sanctuary.

  I can just imagine the wrenched gut feelings you and your immediate family went through with your mom. It is a sad fact that far to many at this moment, are dealing with threats of violence, abuse, torture, and reviling, even from so-called 'loved ones'. To extend love and consideration to your mom's condition, surely took some soul searching, or at least a conclusion that her mental state gave some license to 'overlook'(couldn't use the word forgive) her conduct. Surely no one would even suggest that she be treated by any other means than incarciration. It befits the circumstances. No argument at all Ginny.

  Reports coming back from those who lived with or near the individual terrorists responsible for the actual acts of terror, show that these people for all intent and purpose, seemed normal in every sense of the word, going about their daily lives, with no symptoms or indications of what they were really about. Evidence that this whole action was methodical, relentless, and planned in every detail. Not some off the cuff, heated, random display of violence...but cold calculated 'blood thirsty' murder. Not even a whisper of this planned 'horror' was divulged. They were resolute in their 'intent' to commit.

  The terrorist pilots who flew those plains, were no more or less culpable then those who offered assistance in carrying out those murders. They all inclusive planner's and doer's are deserving of death, no incarceration, treatment, therapy should or would serve to satisfy justice in this case. Try arguing such to anyone of the 6,000+ families so affected. Right now 100's of million of our American family member's are rising up and asking for justice.

  Yes I believe that Bush's call to destroy/get rid of 'evil-doer's' like the scum sucking pigs, that performed this mass murder is a nobel goal. I hope he sticks to his guns(?) and does just that...rid every corner of the earth of any cancerous cell...that just hints at support of any 'terror' or 'holy mass murder' again.

  Danny
• 

  larc

  Ginny,

  What would you have done if your mother had killed two or three members of the family?
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Larc,

  What would you have done if your mother had killed two or three members of the family?

  If I or other family members were not in immediate danger, my choice would have been the same. I would have committed my mother.

  If she were still holding the gun, I'm not sure. Perhaps there would be a way to get the gun from her. Perhaps we could have distracted her or calmed her down. These were methods we used at other times.

  I think I have ventured into an area that is too painful for me to discuss further.

  DannyBear and Tdogg,

  Please go ahead and choose your teams and paint your enemies as scum sucking pigs. Punish them with death and relish the executions. I cannot forget that these men have families. I cannot forget that they are human, just as I am, and misguided by fanatical religious thinking, just as I once was.

  Ginny
• 

  teejay

  This is the analogy I personally use to grasp the current situation.

  Ginny,

  I'm very moved by your revelation about your mom. It is a tragic telling of a person in a lot of pain. Your mom had an illness, lessened somewhat by treatment. Personally, I think your equating her illness with the terrorist acts of grieving people is off base. You don't need to respond to this note. I just felt a need to say something about your mom.

  It's been my belief for some time that all of us, in varying degrees, are a tad bonkers. We walk around everyday with neuroses that are on slow simmer. I believe that none of us are ever really that far from going stark raving mad, considering all of the pressures we face daily. What's surprising is that more of us don't. Still, if just one or two of the right events were to happen to any one of us, who's to say what the outcome would be? That's why I can consider someone like your mom, and relate. I mean that. There but for the grace of god... I believe that with all my heart.

  But your mom did not exhibit terrorist behavior. Violent? Perhaps, but nowhere near the same as terroristic.

  Look, to virtually every nation, tribe, tongue and people in the world, these people, Arabs, are (excuse the language) the niggers of the world. No one, save themselves, care about them. You think Bush Sr. came to the defense of Kuwait because of human rights violations? Because democracy was being challenged? I hope you don't. They had oil. Period. That's what that war for "freedom and the American way of life" was all about. I'm not saying American interests in Kuwait were totally unjustified -- hey, I drive a car and like my house warm in the winter -- but people have a right to self-determination. Like Americans, foreigners, in their own country, have a right to decide what should be done with their land and their people.

  Couple that right of self-determination with the knowledge that others have (many who have studied here) of American history. Such history is not hidden away in some scrolls, written in an ancient language that only a few scribes and priests can decipher. What Europeans did to indigenous people here in the New World just a scant 200 years ago -- often in the name of religion -- is very well known. What they have done all over the world since then is well known. An intelligent people, aware of America's own history of mistreating people, exploiting foreign countries of its natural resources, setting up and toppling governments at will, is all known. Gung-ho Americans would rather not hear it, but there it is, all acted out on the world stage.

  Now, enter a bin Laden. Not bin Laden -- *a* bin Laden. Vilified in the Western press, but no dummy, not by a long shot. Rich. A patriot, but for the wrong side. He loves his people, his country, his religion, just like any red-blooded American. Aware of American history, seeing his country raped of its wealth, he decides to become a Thomas Jefferson, a Samuel Adams, except for HIS people, not Americans. Instead of being forced to fight with inferior weapons -- bows and arrows -- he can fight with the same weapons, using the same tactics, as his adversary who taught him. For once, the playing field is quite level.

  In acting out, the perpetrators are labeled "terrorists." Your mom is no terrorist... she was sick and needed help. Trying to make such a comparison is a major fallacy. imo.

  tj
• 

  tdogg

  I relish no death Ginny. War sucks. War is bad. War is inevitable.
  People will die. Innocent people. Innocent people have died, every day since the dawn of man. I do not cheer death but I would have it that my country is safe from attack.

  These men have families? You mean they are not some evil spawn of Satan himself? Of course they have families. So did the Nazis. So did Ghengis Khan. So I guess we should not stand up to attacks on our our citizens so that Abu's mommy wont get sad?

  What exactly do you propose? Sanctions? I dont think sanctions would have stopped Adolf. It didnt stop the Japanese in 1941. Sanctions just piss people off more, just like invading their homeland. And a stern talking to isnt going to stop these men.

  Religion is NOT the reson people kill, hatred is. Religion is just the excuse.
• 

  larc

  teejay,

  You explain how wrong we are. Fact is, all countries are wrong. Always have been always will be. Now, what do you propose we should do in this moment in time?