The Judeo-Christian premise for our destroying the earth? (page 4)

Satanus

Christians tend to immediately jump to the conclusion that if you deify something you automatically start worshipping it. Come on, give us pantheists a break. The 'god' of pantheism doesn't demand worship like the christian gods do.

S

XJW4EVR

Yes, you are right, satanus, I can't imagine how we would get that idea.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deify

deify
One entry found for deify.
</form>Main Entry: de·i·fy
Pronunciation: 'dE-&-"fI, 'dA-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -fied; -fy·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French deifier, from Late Latin deificare, from Latin deus god + -ficare -fy
1 a: to make a god of b: to take as an object of worship
2: to glorify as of supreme worth

"To make a god of," hmmm that sounds like Christians jumped to a conclusion there.

"To take as an object of worship," Wow! What a stretch!

"To glorify as of supreme worth," Interesting. Another leap at a conclusion.

Seems that I understand the term "deify" in it's correct historical context.

Might I suggest that you let the rest of us know when you decide to change the meaning of a word?

Satanus

Ok, XJW4EVR, let me try another tack. Do gods worship each other?

S

daystar

XJW4EVR

You're assuming that "1. a" necessitates "1. b". It does not.

LittleToe

Daystar:
Now I'm starting to feel like a smartarse, and it doesn't sit easy

But this is not typically a Christian notion and the Bible does not support it explicitly that I'm aware of.

I was using a term and quotations that are familiar to Christians to make exactly that point.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Psa 139:7, 8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

That last one was a text that we often read as JWs, but never really applied in that manner. We just said that he saw everything, rather than was literally everywhere.

daystar

Now I'm starting to feel like a smartarse, and it doesn't sit easy

LOL! Well, now you're just trying to make me feel good.

I understand exactly what you're getting at. But in my experience, you're rather unique as a Christian, Ross. You are a mystic. (I think.) And Christian mystics are not exactly common. And most Christians are not likely to have read Hermetic texts and be familiar with some of the other realms of knowledge that you are, in order to get that slant on those scripture.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;

This means something very different to me than it would to most mainstream Christians. I read an esoteric meaning. Because the Universe is Mental, we literally live, move and have our being within the Divine, as does everything. The sacred emerges through the material world rather than existing above it, removed from it. But you will be very hard pressed to convince me that the majority of the Christians think or feel this way. To them, there is the earth, a created thing, the realm of matter, and there is the spiritual realm, including heaven, towards which to attain. The material world is relegated to exist seemingly much closer to hell than to heaven.

LittleToe

LOL! Well, now you're just trying to make me feel good.

Naw. Culturally speaking it's not the done thing, where I was raised. But onwards and upwards, as they say:

IMHO most of the people I know who go to church will sit quietly through a half-hour sermon, perhaps about being good stewards of the planet, then promptly go home and waste half a rack of beef.

Surely some claims to be a Christian have to be considered dubious, such as those based on:

mere birthright in the "West"
Parents being Christians
occasionally going to church
simply stating nominal Christianity

In my experience this is the constitution of the majority of the "Christian" world. Their worldview is barely even "Bible-based", as they'd rather watch/believe Montel Williams and Oprah Winfrey than a Minister, Priest or Rabbi. Ask anyone on the street how many of the ten commandments they can recall and I will guarantee you that 99% of people will be lucky to recall three.

How's that for a "Judeo-Christian" worldview?

Narkissos

The "stewardship" pattern is all the theological basis which remains to deal with the environment, and it seems to be insufficient to deal with present environmental issues (note that the very notion of "environment" belongs to the same anthropocentrist perspective).
I would argue that there is no Judeo-Christian premise for either destroying or protecting our environment. It's is a theologically neutral subject, as far as any anthropological dimension is concerned.

QED. "Environment" is indifferent to the core of Judaism and Christianity. And that might be true of Buddhism too, although the notion of "universal compassion" compensates that to an extent.

Of course there are notable exceptions, in the Torah itself (although Paul characteristically shrugs at the literal meaning with the rhetorical question, "does God care about bulls?"), in Job (where Yhwh's discourse are strongly -- and scandalously -- anti-humanist, suggesting that man and his worries are marginal to a God who is interested in all creation), in Jonah ("should I not be concerned about Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also many animals?"), or in the Synoptics ("Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.") But as all exceptions they confirm the rule...

In addition the notion of creation which makes the cosmos appear artificial (like stage props), the notion of end of the world à la 2 Peter or Revelation -- where the universe is either consumed with fire in Stoic manner or rolled up as a scroll book -- is diametrically opposed to a mysticism of connection to, or dependence on, the ongoing community of life. Of course every mythology must account for man's strangeness as well as belonging to the physical and zoological sphere, but in Judaism and Christianity (including Gnosticism) as a whole the second pole is cruelly lacking imo.

daystar

Ok, LT, and as you admit that most Christians (and people generally) know very little about what they profess to believe, even moreso will they not get the subtleties. Thus the difference between the exoteric and the esoteric. However, the very strong implications of a seperation between the divine and the material will not be lost on them, at least on an unconscious level, because it's an assumption upon which all else rests.

God and heaven/perfection reside in one place... sin, pain, suffering, man and all things material reside here. It's simply, in my mind, an untenable duality, and one reason I deny Christianity for the most part. If the core values and assumptions are distorted, then all that is reliant upon them must be equally distorted.

Anyway, I feel a dead horse is beginning to be quite beaten at this point.

Narkissos, thank you for your input. Your actual, literal, knowledge of the subject is quite helpful to me.

Have a great weekend, both of you!

LittleToe

Didier:
As you're aware, I acknowledge the Bible to be a compilation of books that can seem quite contradictory if taken literally. You've highlighted some excellent examples of the spectrum of views found therein.

I guess there are raised expectations of the Bible as a "rulebook of conduct for man". I have to confess that most Christians I know would accept it as such. It just doesn't seem to cover every eventuality, to me, and care of the general environment seems to be one of those gaps. I think this lack of prescription is usually fortunate, as I would hate to have my every move dictated to. In this particular case its an unfortunate omission. I guess that global warming just wasn't an issue at the time of writing

Daystar:
On that we agree.

Anyway, I feel a dead horse is beginning to be quite beaten at this point.

Since when did that stop a thread on JWD

Have a good weekend yourself, bro

The Judeo-Christian premise for our destroying the earth?

deify

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