Apols. I gotta go to bed - I'm creamed.
Ta for the comments
Questions Surrounding Evolution
by The wanderer 43 Replies latest jw friends
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jaguarbass
In my opinion, evolution is just one of mans mans ways of trying to explain the unexplained. It gives those who embrace it a get out of jail card for not having to deal with the religious clergy.
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I quit!
Hi Wander,
To get a good over view in the big bang you might want to read: " God Time & Stephen Hawking An Exploration into Origins" by David Wilkinson. He is both a Methodist Minister he has a PhD in Theoretical Astrophysics. Here are some of the titles of the chapters: Hubbles's Window on the Universe, A Brief History of the Big Bang, A Singular Problem or two with the Big Bang, and The Uncertainty of Quantum Gravity. I found it to be an easy and fun book to read on the subject. He even quoted Douglas Adams at one point and that alone lifted my opion of him by several notches.
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AlmostAtheist
ergo it is possible to have an undesigned object
generate a designed one. There is no rule at all.I didn't mean to suggest it's a rule, or that it's not. Only that if a person is going to USE it as a rule, then it must be applied evenly.
The premise of ID is "The universe looks like it was designed, therefore it must have a designer." This premise implies the rule "That which appears designed must have a designer." I don't need to state a position on whether or not I agree with that rule here, I'm just saying (along with Satanus and others) that if a rule is applied to the universe, it would also have to be applied to the "designer". IF it's a rule. And if it's not a rule, then the premise of ID is lost.
We cannot apply our physical rules to an entire
universe we can only perceive a thin sliver of.Agreed. We're not in a position to say what's impossible. To state dogmatically that such and such is impossible isn't logical, given the huge whack of stuff we KNOW we don't know. Not to mention the huger whack of stuff we don't yet know we don't know.
we are unable to make any pronouncements in and
of ourselves about any Gods existence as well!!
He tends to do that Himself.Next time you see him, tell him to speak up! We can't hear him here in the back. (Maybe I should move up closer?) ;-)
Dave
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Narkissos
Next time you see him, tell him to speak up! We can't hear him here in the back. (Maybe I should move up closer?) ;-)
ROFL.
I guess there's always seat left in the front rows (as in churches and KHs).
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TopHat
God speaks AlmostA, you are just not listening:
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 ( A ) Let no man deceive himself ( B ) If any man among you thinks that he is wise in ( C ) this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 For ( D ) the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, "He is ( E ) THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, " ( F ) THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."
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stevenyc
And who says the bible doesn't contradict itself!
Proverbs Chp 4:
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, [ a ] get understanding.8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.9 She will set a garland of grace on your head
and present you with a crown of splendor."steve
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Qcmbr
AA - I agree that He does need to speak up and it is a definate query of mine as to why He hasn't (and no I don't count my own church's history since we are very very insignificant in the world at the moment.)
Now we presume that God didn't speak to any prominent group for 2000 years or so from the time of Christ's death. Reading the gospels we find retrospective accounts of Jesus' life and little actual doctrinal content in Paul's letters that isn't either a rehash of Jesus' comments OR a rule he (or a later scribe) has clearly made to confront some emerging issue. Revelations may or may not be counted as the last great revelation from that era (anyone actually understand it???) but we have suffered a very quiet time as regards heavenly effort since. Now I find the LDS experience absolutely as expected but I cannot fathom why we are still so insignificant - the horrible truth may be that we aren't good enough (or are wrong - a stance that I of course don't believe but add for balance) and that when God speaks or performs His work it won't be pleasant going on the past track record.
Back on topic: If God was the designer what would you expect to be different? I don't mean what would you design different but what would you expect to see that would be proof of design? If this wasn't designed then there has been a magnificent coincidence between opportunity (this single solitary planet with exactly these conditions that exactly regulate themselves) and organisation intelligence (life as a self-replicating and information increasing and preserving mechanism.) I certainly couldn't have designed it better and I'm staggered if this was all a fluke.
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AlmostAtheist
If God was the designer what would you expect to be different? I don't mean what would you design different but what would you expect to see that would be proof of design? If this wasn't designed then there has been a magnificent coincidence between opportunity (this single solitary planet with exactly these conditions that exactly regulate themselves) and organisation intelligence (life as a self-replicating and information increasing and preserving mechanism.) I certainly couldn't have designed it better and I'm staggered if this was all a fluke.
You'd be hard pressed to do an overall better job of building life on earth better than has already been done. I don't think you'll get an argument against that. There are little oddities here and there (backwards wiring of our eyes comes to mind, our susceptibility to choking is another) but overall it's a great ecosystem.
"WHY is it great?", is the question. Because some intelligence directed it to greatness? Or because a natural process did?
Remember that evolution isn't "random". It promotes better creatures. Just like lousy employees get fired and good ones get retained, and you wind up with an effective work force. It's got nothing to do with putting rice in a box and shaking it for billions of years, waiting for a banana to come out. It's predicted that evolution's result SHOULD look designed. But it's also predicted that there should be little things along the way that don't look quite perfect. So the backwards-wired eyes makes sense in the evolutionary model, but not so much in the ID model.
Dave
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Satanus
Qcmbr
when God speaks or performs His work it won't be pleasant going on the past track record.
That's the thing about the god of the mormons, muslims, jews and christians. Your god is unable or doesn't want to carry on a continuous open friendly relationship w humanity.
If God was the designer what would you expect to be different?
I certainly couldn't have designed it better and I'm staggered if this was all a fluke.
I would change the whole ecosystem so that animals wouldn't be preying on other animals, and humans on the animals. In our present arrangement, it's necesary for food. I would change that by changing the system fundamentally so that organisms had an energy source that would not involve suffering. If i was god, i would be able to figure out how to do that. The fact that there is so much suffering tells me that god wants it and that he is seriously flawed, or your god doesn't exist.
S
S