by Perry 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
We did not personally sin against God but he sinned and we inherited that sin and it is deeply ingrained into our bodies and minds, correct?
Romans 3:23-24 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Hi Kate,
Thanks for that well written post. I see what you are saying and that is the view of most christians. However it works out (man's salvation that is) we can be assured that it will be in a way that benefits the most people and not a single one of those who are supposed to be saved will be lost. Nice hearing from you. Lilly
Since the subject is death, you might be interested in what A Course In Miracles (Manual for Teachers) has to say:
WHAT IS DEATH?
Death is the central dream from which all illusions stem. Is it not madness to think of life as being born, aging, losing vitality, and dying in the end? We have asked this question before, but now we need to consider it more carefully. It is the one fixed, unchangeable belief of the world that all things in it are born only to die. This is regarded as "the way of nature" not to be raised to question, but to be accepted as the "natural" law of life. The cyclical, the changing and unsure; the undependable and the unsteady, waxing and waning in a certain way upon a certain path,--all this is taken as the Will of God. And no one asks if a benign Creator could will this.
In this perception of the universe as God created it, it would be impossible to think of Him as loving. For who has decreed that all things pass away, ending in dust and disappointment and despair, can but be feared. He holds your little life in his hand but by a thread, ready to break it off without regret or care, perhaps today. Or if he waits, yet is the ending certain. Who loves such a god know not of love, because he has denied that life is real. Death has become life's symbol. His world is now a battleground, where contradiction reigns and opposites make endless war. Where there is death is peace impossible.
Death is the symbol of the fear of God. His Love is blotted out in the idea, which holds it from awareness like a shield held up to obscure the sun. The grimness of the sybol is enough to show it cannot coexist with God. It holds an image of the Son of God in which he is "laid to rest" in devastation's arms, where worms wait to greet him and to last a little while by his destruction. Yet the worms as well are doomed to be destroyed as certainly. And so do all things live because of death. Devouring is nature's "law of life." God is insane, and fear alone is real.
The curious belief that there is part of dying things that may go on apart from what will die, does not proclaim a loving God nor re-establish any grounds for trust. If death is real for anything, there is no life. Death denies life. But if there is reality in life, death is denied. No compromise in this is possible. There is either a god of fear or One of Love. The world attempts a thousand compromises, and will attempt a thousand more. Not one can be acceptable to God's teachers, because not one could be acceptable to God. He did not make death because He did not make fear. Both are equally meaningless to Him.
The "reality" of death is firmly rooted in the belief that God's Son is a body. And if God created bodies, death would indeed be real. But God would not be loving. There is no point at which the world of illusions becomes more sharply evident. Death is indeed the death of God, if He is Love. And now His Own creation must stand in fear of Him. He is not Father, but destroyer. He is not Creator, but avenger. Terrible his Thoughts and fearful His image. To look on His creations is to die.
"And the last to be overcome will be death." Of course! Without the idea of death there is no world. All dreams will end with this one. This is salvation's final goal; the end of all illusions. And in death are all illusions born. What can be born of death and still have life? But what is born of God and still can die? The inconsistencies, the compromises and the rituals the world fosters in its vain attempts to cling to death and yet to think love real are mindless magic, ineffectual and meaningless. God is, and in Him all ceated things must be eternal. Do you not see that otherwise He has an opposite, and fear would be as real as love?
Teacher of God, you one assignment could be stated thus: Accept no compromise in which death plans a part. Do not believe in cruelty, nor let attack conceal the truth from you. What seems to die has but been misperceived and carried to illusion. Now it becomes your task to let the illusion be carried to the truth. Be steadfast but in this; be not deceived by the "reality" of any changing form. Truth neither moves nor wavers nor sinks down to death and dissolution. And what is the end of death? Nothing but this; the realization that the Son of God is guiltless now and forever. Nothing but this. But do not let yoursef forget it is not less than this.
Thanks for that well written post. I see what you are saying and that is the view of most christians. However it works out (man's salvation that is) we can be assured that it will be in a way that benefits the most people and not a single one of those who are supposed to be saved will be lost. Nice hearing from you. Lilly
Lilly I can't take the credit for it, it was written by Albert Barnes, a theologian, I merely agree with it and am not that great of a writer
After I posted it I felt bad that you might take it personally so please forgive me for not even saying Hi how are you!
It is great that we can put so much time and effort into rereading/ relearning the Bible after the Watchtower. It is ok to disagree and still be real friends, real family in Christ. We may not agree on everything, but it sure can be fun to discuss it freely without fear of an elder having a talk with us, or threatening disfellowshipping for having a dangerous independant mind.
Love Always,
Kate
Kate - Amen to your last post. Lilly
Hi Lilly,
I left town for a re-union right after my last post on Friday and just returned last night. Sorry for the delay. You wrote:
Perry
I will try to answer you the best I can and then I think we should put this to rest. So I will probably not respond to this thread any more. I think we both gave many good points for each side but will have to decide things for oursleves. While we agree on many points we will not ever agree on whether the ransom was for all or just some. Thats o.k. it is NOT essential for our salvation.
I agree that this thread is nearing it's end and that many good points have been made by all posters. I'll make just a couple brief comments.
As in many discussions some points are sometimes defended that are actually agreed upon by the other side. At this point it might be useful to remind ourselves something tht Paul once said:
It is wonderful to contemplate God's mercies. If we think that we can ever plum the depth of God's mercy we're mistaken. It is tantalizing to consider how God's mercy will be extended and to whom. However, the Good news is Jesus Christ and him crucified. It will always be THE Good News, even as the particular facets are studied. You believe that the real Good News as you put it is that all will be saved. If that is true or mostly true, it will simply be a facet of the over-arching Good News of the crucifixition and the work that was wrought there.
How do you reconcile your beliefs about God only saving those who he draws to him (which is not all) with this simple stated fact in scripture: God IS Love? Lilly
I've made several rebuttals to this but consider my previous contrast between Judas and Peter to be the strongest:
26:24 ..... but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born."
Apostate Kate made a good point in the paper she posted:
(3.) that men are to blame if they are not saved. If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own--and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and to make himself the eternal enemy of his Maker.
God has honestly wished ALL people's salvation, and he has made provision for it as well. This is why he is not to blame for those that reject. However, at the same time it is also true that we cannot accept unless we are chosen. This serves to convict us in righteousness. I believe that we must be convicted before we can accept. We must come to the end of ourselves. The gavel must come down in our soul with the words 'guilty" ringing in our ears before Calvary will mean anything.
The criminal that Christ saved had reached a place of complete mental clarity. As he hung on that timber naked, his pride had completely vanished. He was freed from it's death-grip. His ego was dimished, it was no longer the center of the universe proved by the rebuke he gave his comrade in Jesus' defense. He had exhausted all his effots at significance, happiness, and gratification and ended up with nothing. And it was precisely where he ended that the Lord met him. This is true for all of us. When you get to the end of yourself, the Lord will meet you there. And, the two of you will head off into the unknown together.
Having said that, I do thank you for your many highlights concerning the future kingdom, 1st and 2nd resurrection and for your general rhetoric on the future for the unsaved. But a personal hope in a future salvation other than what Paul preached is a mistake that might feed our pride and ego, even if it's the gospel ....... no pun intended. LOL
Peace to ALL!
