whats it all about?

by andyg 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • andyg
    andyg

    my mum used to be a JW, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by). the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years. a lot of it seems very strange to me. if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).

    - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian. obviously the questions here are endless.

    - i was always told that JWs do not believe in wearing crosses because "you wouldn't exactly frame the shotgun that killed your dad." but i don't really follow this logic: the ransom sacrifice was the supreme gesture; the saviour of mankind. all christianity is built on it, so this argument seems weak. also, that JWs believe Christ was crucified with his arms upward rather than outstretched. what evidence is there for this and why does it matter? the cross symbol could still be valid, as i suppose a name plaque would have been nailed above him.

    - how can the story of job be seen as anything other than morbid? obviously this is a criticism levelled at all christianity, but i still fail to understand. a similar question exists over adam and eve, and the snake. if God, in his infinite wisdom, created mankind to be perfect, why did they prove imperfect? it seems to me we cannot be punished for what is, fundamentally, an oversight on His part.

    - the ransom sacrifice, and the whole thing about God biding his time before destroying satan. why? if God created everything?

    - a key precursor to armageddon will be the banning of religion, and this will wipe out all but the jehovah's witnesses. how and why? governments of the east are founded on religion; the USA is founded on freedom of speech and association. and even if it did happen, how will the other thousands of religions die out and not JW? are you thinking that maybe an attempt (most likely by the USA i suppose) to ban religion will result in world war 3?

    - after armageddon, only the faithful and the 'sheeplike ones' will be ressurected to inherit the new order. practically speaking, the process will have to be VERY selective, taking into account all past generations. or do you think that maybe a literal 'new world' will be created?

    - what if these 'sheeplike ones' belong to another religion? do these good-natured people need to be free from any other religious orientation to survive armageddon?

    - 144,000 will go to heaven. does the HQ keep a list of those claiming? because, from generations of billions of people, one of them lives about 10 miles away and one of them lives just around the corner. this strikes me as very odd. also, are all these people destined to follow the JW faith? i mean, they were selected before they were born, so what if they develop as unpleasant people? i'm interested here in official JW lines on destiny.

    - just a minor note, those living within the new order will surely be driven mad with everlasting life. to me, the concept just doesn't seem reasonable. yes, on the one hand, life is a very profound concept and it seems so strange for it to be contained in the short time between life and death. reading up on jungian philosophies here has been driving me mad, and i do believe there is a point to it. creation is a perfectly valid logic. on the other hand, though, the adam and eve story surely tells us that we are not infallible. anyone granted everlasting life would go crazy. we can say, well things will be different, and mankind will be perfect, but how can we know? yes, satan will have been destroyed, but in the beginning, he served only to highlight mankind's inherent flaws. with everlasting life, these will surely be borne out again before long, and things will be back how they were. at the end of the day, who can say that this whole cycle hasn't happened loads of times already? it only takes one angel to go bad, spontaneously and for no apparent reason.

    - and one tiny thing, is the songbook you use the same worldwide? and is it updated ever?

    so that's all i can think of for now really. i guess a lot of it is just taken on faith, and is unanswerable (the old 'why does God allow suffering' enigma). the main one i really wanted to get my head around was the 1st one - cos my mum used to genuinely believe this, and i want to know what the official line is here. one thing i do like about the JW faith is their insistence that good-natured people will not expire at armageddon, regardless of their adhereance to it. but what about someone like me, who spent 5 years attending meetings, then decided it was pointless devoting your life to something there is absolutely no real evidence for? and decided that issues like pre-marital sex and drug use are questions of personal morality? they say "make the truth your own", and i believe that a truly wise and loving god understands my point of view. because it's impossible to know for sure what it's all about. i'm interested in all your views though, because i know that people far cleverer than me, and far happier than me, have adopted this stuff late on in life and hold it steadfast.

  • BabaYaga
    BabaYaga

    First of all, WELCOME Andyg!!!

    My goodness, you DO have some questions, don't you? Good grief, each one of these questions might have been a thread all by itself.

    I think you have taken a lot of us aback with so many thought-provoking questions at once, you will see that the majority of the topics on this board change quickly, there are SO MANY OF US ON HERE all over the world in every time-zone, so in addition to wanting to welcome you, I wanted to respond, which "Bumps thread to top" (you will see some posts that just say "bttt" just for that purpose alone, to keep it on the active topic page.

    Hahahaha other than that give us some time to deal with these questions that could go on forever in discussion. For now I'll answer the easy one:

    Yes, the songbook has been updated. During my childhood, it was a bilious freakish pink color, and in the early to mid 1980's they came out with the "new" brown hardback one. They kept some of the songs, and added many new ones. This came out just before I left, so I don't know all the new "Kingdom Melodies" even tho I was born and raised in. Just as well, really!

    Again, WELCOME! We're glad you're here.

  • BabaYaga
    BabaYaga

    As I say, AndyG, each one of these could be a thought and discussion provoking question. You might do well to just bring these out individually spaced out over a few days or week or so.

    I also want to point out a thread that is currently active on the cross issue...
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120491/1.ashx

    Have fun!

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    anyone granted everlasting life would go crazy.

    LoL, that thought struck me too, at an early age. I was thinking,what can you do to pass time in the New System...for all eternity! Well, you can go thru all of the hobbies known to man. Master every sport (if you have thousands of years and a perfect body,it won`t be a problem).Climb every mountain on earth. Swim in every ocean. See every inch of every country, see all the animals on earth in their natural habitat. Eat all the different foods/dishes from every culture. Then learn to play 50 instruments. And read all the books that survived Armageddon (if they were "theocratic" enough, that is...) Ok, then what...What to do after that? Do it all over again? And again? And again? And again and again and again and again and again and again and... This line of thought didn`t work on my mom. She just said, "oh, there will always be something new to do".She was wrong. The earth is a limited geographical area, and time is infinite. Some people have absolutely no grasp on the concept of eternity!

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Hi! I'm not a JW, but I'm married to one. Welcome to the board.

    - and one tiny thing, is the songbook you use the same worldwide? and is it updated ever?

    As far as I know, yes. Except for the words. They would translate in different languages. I just learned recently that the songbook WAS updated. Once.

    The music sounds like pirated Disney music with a sprinkle of Sousa and Elevator.

  • gwyneth
    gwyneth
    the songbook WAS updated.

    When I was young, the songbook had a Pepto-Bismol pink paperback cover. Then in the early to mid 80's, we got an update of the songbook with a brown hardback cover. Mostly new songs were added--took us forever to learn them. A lot of off-key humming for awhile. I also remember they changed the tune to the last song about paradise, but same words--I think they got sued for plaigerism. It really confused me when I was young, because the last song was always my favorite, and I would try and sing it the old way. The new tune never felt right.

    Edited to add: "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize."

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586
    She just said, "oh, there will always be something new to do".She was wrong. The earth is a limited geographical area, and time is infinite. Some people have absolutely no grasp on the concept of eternity!

    Well, that's where you're wrong, pal! Just when we've done everything, then we'll create the space program again and escape the planet!

    Um...because...JWs love technology and science.

    Yes! So we can go out into space and preach to...aliens, who I guess don't have Satan to deal with. I don't know if there's an alien Satan that we have to save people from. And an alien Bible too. But we'll figure it out! Maybe it's on one of those new scrolls that get opened?

    You know, maybe you should stop selfishly reaching out for more than your personal panda that you get to play with for all eternity.

  • Alligator Wisdom
    Alligator Wisdom

    Welcome AndyG!

    Asking questions? Wonderful. That is the way to grow. It seems that you may not have had your questions answered while associating at your local Kingdom Hall. Or was it because asking questions were deemed as thinking too independantly or a sign of resistance to the general movement?

    Whatever the case, your inquiries are welcome here. Your questions are varied and interesting. Perhaps doing as was suggested, by posting them individually so you can get concentrated responses on each one in relative detail.

    You said : before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian. obviously the questions here are endless.

    I always wondered myself as to what scriptural reason the WTS taught as that being the case. Speculation I suppose, if they admit it. Fossil records show that carnivorous creatures existed eons ago.

    Glad to have you posting.

    Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)

  • Jringe01
    Jringe01

    Hi andyg..welcome.

    I thought I would touch on this question "if God, in his infinite wisdom, created mankind to be perfect, why did they prove imperfect?"

    Eve proved imperfect because she was decieved. perhaps God could have overlooked that but Adam choose to follow his wife. Apparently he had more love for her than his creator.

    I am not convinced that they were "perfect" as we understand the term. Remember that they were the last of creation and thus new on the scene. I personally believe that perfection involves much more than living forever in perfect health. I feel it also involves a person's personality and that it's a stage/state of being that has to be achieved thru years of effort and to be the largest and most important component in the process of perfection.

    I think that God can only get us started, he cannot make us perfect. it's something we have to attain.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

    People were vegetarians. I don't remember ever discussing the animals that way. I remember that they would be vegetarian in paradise according to prophecy in Isaiah. I suppose, if they were going to be that way, the teaching must have been that it was the "original purpose."

    also, that JWs believe Christ was crucified with his arms upward rather than outstretched. what evidence is there for this and why does it matter? the cross symbol could still be valid, as i suppose a name plaque would have been nailed above him.

    It should not be a big issue, but JWs strive to be controversial on many subjects, such as this one. They say it is a pagan symbol that existed before Christ. As far as the stake/cross issue, their stance is very weak. I think it's just another "See, we are different ploy." They say the Latin word in the Bible meant tree or stake (It can, but doesn't rule out cross) but they neglect to tell us that often the stake was permanently fixed with the crosspiece carried to the execution. (Jesus bearing his cross).

    if God, in his infinite wisdom, created mankind to be perfect, why did they prove imperfect? it seems to me we cannot be punished for what is, fundamentally, an oversight on His part.

    They say Adam and Eve had free will. They say they chose to want to "be like God, and choose for themselves what is good and bad." You bring up a great point. If Eve were perfect, she would use 100% of her perfect brain. She would know God was able to punish her and that some fruit off a tree would not make her "like God." They say, Satan went to the naive woman, but you are right, makes no sense.

    - after armageddon, only the faithful and the 'sheeplike ones' will be ressurected to inherit the new order. practically speaking, the process will have to be VERY selective, taking into account all past generations. or do you think that maybe a literal 'new world' will be created?

    They say that the total number of people who have ever lived is not so great as to exclude them from all fitting on the earth. Remember that all but the faithful will be wiped out today. Tha eliminates over 6 Billion people from the get-go. They also say, we've only been alive 6000 yrs.

    - what if these 'sheeplike ones' belong to another religion? do these good-natured people need to be free from any other religious orientation to survive armageddon?

    Last one from me for now. Yes, they have to completely separate from Babylon the Great to escape her wrath because of her bloodguilt. Many are pointing out the hypocrisy of their stance, by discussing the WTS bloodguilt.

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