TWO down and counting

by crossroads 61 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  reagan_oconnor

  UR

  The Black Panthers espoused the concept that Black people had a right to defend themselves against racist authorities by any necessary means, including violence. Gibbs Community Foundation, http://www.gibbsmagazine.com

  In the '60s, …they [the Panthers] also advocated the use of armed resistance to fuel a revolution against what they saw as white oppression and capitalism. Monterey County Herald, April 22, 2000

  The Black Panthers were formed in California in 1966. They believed that the non-violent campaign of Martin Luther King had failed and any promised changes to their lifestyle would take too long to be implemented or simply not introduced. Their language was violent as was their public stance…In 1966, a survey carried out in America showed that less than 5% of African-Americans approved of groups such as the BPP. 60% were positively hostile to such groups. www.byteachers.org.uk

  Some organizations adhered to strictly peaceful protests while others, such as the Panthers … favored peaceful means of achieving equality unless violence was necessary for defense. The lists of courageous men and women who struggled for equality can be quite long. However, it is obvious that the picture of the Panthers lack the presence of women. This failure to acknowledge women in the Panther picture represents the Civil Rights Movement as a whole. With a few exceptions, African American women generally do not receive the credit they deserve for their impact in the 1960’s Civil Rights Movement. Representation of Women in the 1960’s Civil Rights Movement by John Winters, Jr.

  "The BPP did not fully appreciate the necessity for cultural transformation in the movement. Instead, they promoted a "revolutionary culture" that was amorphous and self-serving. It was rooted in a Machiavellian rationalization of Malcolm's "by any means necessary" dicta whereby members simply legitimized their lumpen activities by asserting that these were somehow "revolutionary." This approach was used especially to sexually exploit women, to character assassinate rivals, to rationalize the misuse of BPP funds by the national leadership, to justify internecine violence, or to excoriate rival organizations (such as with the NOI, SNCC, RNA [Republic of New Afrika], and Us organization) within the Black Power movement. This glorified lumpenism was so expansive that Hilliard (1993, pp. 339-339) reports that Huey even came to require that BPP members watch The Godfather, as he began to argue for a "progressive capitalism" (Newton, 1971). Allegedly, the Panther nightclub, The Lamp Post, even became, among other things, a front for prostitution and funding source for Huey's and the Central Committee's personal indulgences." The Shadow of the Panther: Huey Newton and the Price of Black Power in America by Hugh Pearson

  The general assessment is that the BPP used violence to achieve their ends. Granted, in the 70s they focused their efforts in a more positive, community-oriented direction, but the fact remains that they still used violence to reach their goals. This is the point I was making.

  I respect that you may or may not agree with labeling the BPP as a terrorist group – you have that right. However, I would suggest that you do your own research and refrain from making uneducated statements regarding what I do and do not know.

  Regards,
  Reagan

  I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.
  
• 

  dubla

  crossroads-

  I want to bring this up because Amazing and Conflicted
  bring up a point. Tim was caught and justice took it's
  course. The bombers are dead.

  Oh remember he gets a trial don't be
  too disappointed if he walks---They will never connect the dots
  all the way back to actually him.

  um, actually you're wrong. unless you've got the exclusive skinny on global intelligence, don't try and have us believe that it's impossible to SPECIFICALLY link bin laden to this attack. open your eyes, it's already been done. if it was found, through intelligence, that mcveigh was working for someone else, and that person was SPECIFICALLY identified as the one who orchestrated and ordered the bomb in oklahoma city, do you not think we would have hunted that person down? if it was a large organization with ties to MANY other attacks on federal buildings, would we not have waged war against this organization? of course we would have. your arguments are paper thin.

  The Law of averages shows that more WHITE men should
  be in jail then. There is more white people and they use more
  drugs just in there nice white picket fence suburbs with a more
  expensive brand of drug.

  is this topic really about the number of blacks vs. the number of whites that are in jail because of drugs? another paper thin argument. the fact is, if you are a drug user/dealer, then you are in danger of being caught and prosecuted, the same as if you are a terrorist waging acts of war against the united states, then you are in danger of being caught and prosecuted. bid laden falls into this group, so yes, he is in danger of being hunted down. you've yet to tell us your proposition crossroads, should we just ignore bid laden and wait for his next attack?

  Getting Bin Laden and even all of HIS crew is
  not a WAR on Terrorism.

  it may not be the entire solution to ridding the world of terrorism, i think any intelligent person would agree with you there. it would be a start though. in order to solve a problem, dont you inevitably have to start somewhere? if the problem is terrorism, what better place to start then the group that just committed the single largest terrorist attack in our history?

  aa
• 

  stephenw20

  JDUB
  the problem is not terrorism and nothing will be solved by retaliating same. retaliating same took down those towers last week.

  Education of their culture for us and our culture for them is ~a~ place to start.

  teenage boys with no decsions on what college to attend or what job prosepcts might be ahead are taken and taught this BRAND of hate....... it just escalates from there. In their mind they are PLEASING their god and there leaders......we could share our wealth with that part of the world and take some of these kids and show them OUR world but we don't .....we just put up a higher fence for them to topple.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  My reply to Ms. O'Connor's "white" references are in her new thread.
  Perhaps she may consult inside sources for a change before quoting references from politically motivated critics.
• 

  dubla

  Education of their culture for us and our culture for them is ~a~ place to start.

  we could share our wealth with that part of the world and take some of these kids and show them OUR world but we don't

  yes, im sure most of us would agree that a good plan of action in response to the slaughter of thousands in an act of war, is to set up better culture education, and better yet, bring members of these groups into our country at a young age with the hopes they dont grow up to believe their parents words that "americans are the great satan", and should be wiped from the face of the earth.

  this isnt an education problem. its a holy war for them. how can you educate someone that their religion is wrong? these terrorists believe that these acts are/were their DIRECT ticket to paradise according to their religious beliefs. they believe these acts were ordered by their god, and by carrying them out they have done gods will, and gotten one step closer to ridding the world of americans. there are many more terrorists out there with the exact same beliefs, willing to die in order to take large numbers of americans with them. and youre telling me terrorism is not the problem?

  aa
• 

  stephenw20

  JDUB
  you educate them by the same method we have here to find out our parents were not always right

  you show them......

  holy war or not these kids are TAUGHT.. so if its not with education then what is it with. THEIR religion DOES not support thisi action until it is perverted......in the end they stiill have to choose... its that damn FREE WILL THING AGAIN
• 

  dubla

  holy war or not these kids are TAUGHT.. so if its not with education then what is it with.

  perhaps you didnt catch the pictures/videos of the CHILDREN dancing on the west bank in celebration of the attacks in ny? do you think this is due to their education level, or a religious belief that is engrained in them from their parents?

  you educate them by the same method we have here to find out our parents were not always right

  ah yes, so thats the solution. we just have to rip them from their parents at infancy, bring them to america, and let them learn in our school systems that americans really arent "the great satan". of course this process will take decades to actually work. so in the meantime, we will just sit back and peacefully wait for the next attack on our soil, becuase we already know there are many more out there waiting and willing(and these are adults, not children). maybe the next attack will involve a nuclear device, or perhaps anthrax. but theres no sense in trying to track down these terrorists in hopes of possibly preventing any of it, because......

  nothing will be solved by retaliating same

  who is advocating "retaliating same" anyhow? who is saying, "in order to get back at terrorism, we need to slaughter thousands of innocent ones in afghanistan with no purpose whatsoever but to make a point"??? if war is waged, which it will be, and in the process of HUNTING down the terrorists that are STILL ACTIVE, innocent people (americans too) die........this is not the "same" as flying passenger planes into buildings of office workers for the simple reason that americans need to be destroyed. if you cannot see the difference, then i am certainly wasting my breath here.

  aa

  aa
• 

  stephenw20

  JDUB

  I never advocated ripping anyone from their parents.... their parents have however educated them and handed down the things ~they~ know... their parents were kids like them once and in case you are unaware...many of the ones so instructed into this type of terrorism either have no parents or have ripped from their grasp at early ages.

  you may have celebrated in the past something they would be a bit baffled by as well.

  I understand why they cheer over there, do you understand them do you give them any respect to have a different belief. I am not saying they need to be like us.. just to see we are no the great SATAN so we may both coexist with our common biology even if our idiology is different.

  please read this excerpt from Marianne Williamson

  An Egyptian diplomat, whom I met while taking a break from leading a spiritual pilgrimage to India, came up to me and gently, kindly said these words:

  "I do not mean this as a criticism of the United States. I know the Americans are good men and women. But please try to make them understand: many people in my part of the world feel that they have been forced to try to keep up with you, in a race that we do not really care to run. Your technology is amazing, but America seems spiritually polluted to many of us. Your ways are not our ways, and while we were tempted for a while to think that your ways should be our ways, we do not think that anymore.

  This is the problem, Ms. Williamson, and there will be terrible consequences in the world if America does not come to understand this. Islamic terrorists have had such success- if you can call their campaigns a success -- because they have been able to persuade millions of peasants that America is bad. It is not too difficult to do, Ms. Williamson. All they have t02/7 is describe the television programs you export to this part of the world, and millions of people are very horrified. America often comes across to us as very arrogant and uncaring.

  Your government does not understand. They do not see how the people feel. We need the American people to understand. Perhaps you will bring more Americans to our part of the world. If they come to understand us, then they will respect us. We would feel that respect, and then I don't think that the terrorists would have such success. This is not a job the CIA can do. It is only a job which people can do."
• 

  crossroads

  Reagan we have never met on the board Hello,
  Sorry if I offended you I call all Pretty ladies sweetheart,
  I call some men who are not much older than me Ol' man
  and it's a sign of affection---I'm not saying you need my
  affection or want it but maybe I need yours. Just wanted to
  respond to this.

  "First off, how presumptuous of you to refer to me as "a sweetheart." "
  You go on
  "Second, I made no comment about race, simply stated the truth. Drugs are illegal, no matter who you are, no matter what side of the city you live on, no matter what your ethnic background; it's called being held responsible for your actions. The law makes no differentiation, last I checked."

  The problem is the people who enforce the law differentiates
  more WHITE people do drugs than Blacks. But look at the jails.
  They CHOOSE to crack down on "crack" instead of the white
  drug of choice. Just want a level playing field.

  jdubla----BEWARE---of what the government and their media
  tells you. Minutes after Kennedy went down papers through
  out the world knew who did it AMAZING. We Americans always
  want a fall guy we don't care if he did it, Bin Laden is perfect
  for the fall, I'm not saying he didn't do it but NOBODY KNOWS
  for a fact he did.

  "Oh what a tangle web we weave when practice to decieve"

  Oh Ray didn't kill Martin either ; Bobby strange he was killed
  in Cali. where Nixon was once governor . Neat packages is
  want we americans want. Nuke it, Micro wave it, take the car,
  yes we've come very far.Sad that we are going the wrong way.

  If it is a HOLY WAR like you say let the government say that.
  Stop the propaganda stop the lies stand up and tell the truth
  for once---In away I want Bin Laden to give himself up what a
  great thing for the war what a great thing for his side talk about
  escalation. If they hand him over it's because he wants to be
  handed over he wins---People in this country need to wake up
  now!!!!!!!! not half way through a war we can't win. This is
  Vietnam WWIII style I chose not to play.

  "Silly game professor nobody wins---How about a good game
  of chess"

  "War is not the answer only love can conquer hate"
• 

  dubla

  you may have celebrated in the past something they would be a bit baffled by as well.

  are you really comparing cultural differences with the celebration of thousands of innocent people being slaughtered? regardless of culture, beliefs, experiences, etc......anyone who would celebrate an attack like this is absolutely sick.

  I understand why they cheer over there...

  then we are obviously on two VERY different sides of this topic. i do not wish to understand such behavior, and the fact that you or anyone else claims to understand it, or defend it, saddens me, as well as making me sick to my stomach.

  do you give them any respect to have a different belief.

  i respect different beliefs. i have never said one bad word about the islamic faith (the fact of the matter is, the islamic faith does not condone these attacks period.). we are not talking about simply beliefs here though, we are talking about rejoicing in murder. satanic cults have their own beliefs as well, and i respect that. but if a satanic cult starts offering up human sacrifices, and rejoicing in murder, i would not, ever, condone such behavior. again, it saddens me to hear you or anyone else condoning/defending these actions.

  Perhaps you will bring more Americans to our part of the world. If they come to understand us, then they will respect us. We would feel that respect, and then I don't think that the terrorists would have such success.

  well, this sounds like a nice neat little solution. you see, the problem is religious and political at this point, and apparently neither you or the diplomat quoted here realize this. respect or the lackthereof is another discussion. what we are discussing now is terrorism, so lets get to the root of that, shall we? bin laden and his group are trying to rid the world of americans, for many reasons, namely: america is "the great satan", and americans are infidels; he/they want us out of "the holy land" (our troops, our embassies); he/they are enraged at our support of isreal, etc........so, it sounds nice to say that if we all had more respect, we wouldnt have this problem, but the question still remains: even if we were to better educate our children/their children, and even if we could increase the "respect" over time, WHAT SHOULD BE DONE IMMEDIATELY IN ORDER TO TRY AND PREVENT THESE ADULT TERRORISTS, THAT ARE SITTING AND WAITING FOR THE NEXT ATTACK, FROM STRIKING AGAIN?? the culture lessons and talk of respect and oppression are warranted, but they offer no IMMEDIATE plan of action for what we are faced with NOW.

  aa