Raymond Franz is a good man (page 4)

blondie

For those who think that the Franzes are living high off the hog from donations from ex-JWs, have never visited their humble home. If he breaks even on the cost of self-publishing his books, I'd be surprised. The Franzes have no children and any help they get from others is like adult children helping an aging parent.

This thread is disturbing me as people try to make personality judgements based on a book or the comments from others who might or might not have ever met the Franzes.

It reminds me of the days I would be out with the "publishers" and they would slice and dice other people in the congregation under the guise of being helpful.

Blondie

slimboyfat

Minimus,

I see what you are saying about my Antony style "for they are all honourable men..." speech.

But it was not intended that way.

1. Ray Franz defended the 607 BCE chronology because he believed in it, and he believed in "the organization". As he says, it is a powerful concept, and many have believed in it who are essentially good. As Richard Dawkins has said, I paraphrase: "bad men can do bad things, and good men can do good things, but for good men to do bad things - that takes religion."

2. I do not believe the Ray Franz left the governing body or the Witnesses of his own free will, that seems clear from his book. But he did a good job of picking himself up and making sense of his former life after the event and for that he is to be applauded.

3. I think Ray Franz was right not to get involved in all the overblown stuff about child abuse within the Witnesses. I choose Ray Franz over Bill Bowen any day.

4. Ray Franz may have produced the books to provide a living for himself as well as to help others, as I say it is not an either/or situation. It is reasonable to say that he was motivated by both aims.

Is that any clearer? Ray Franz is a good man.

Slim

VM44

Large organizations have a certain amount of inertia in the way they conduct their operations.

Ray Franz was only one person within the WT organization at one time. He could not counteract the large inertia of the Watchtower Corporation on his own. For people to lay the blame of the organizational "evils" at the feet of Ray is not only unfair but also unjust.

Ray Franz has written books trying to help people see things for what they are.

All that the Watchtower does is to attempt to ignore things, or write stuff that covers up or confuses matters.

So I think positive things should be said about Ray.

--VM44

sspo

How many of us would have gotten insight of what goes on behind closed doors of the GB if it wasn't for Ray Franz.

Many of us still attending meetings for one reason or another have a hard time pulling away due family and freinds.

Maybe for some that were Df it was much easier to pull away and not come back so how it happened with Ray it does not matter and he should not be judged. His books are being translated in 12 languages so he has helped many from the grip of the GB.

just2sheep

"...he should not be judged"

in the real world, out side the borg and borg think, we are all judged. i never read his books because by the time i came along all his information was available on the www. if you did and it helped you, i think it is great. and i'm sure that those who have met him are telling the truth about what a nice guy he is. however, that doesn't mean much to me because i haven't, and probably never will, meet him. and i think he should absolutely be judged for his contributions to the WTB&TS. it didn't become the religion we love to hate by itself. it became the religion we love to hate through the contributions of men like ray franz who went along to get along until they couldn't get along anymore. if the present governing body is to be judged as harshly as it is on jwd, and believe me i think they should be judged harshly. then in all fairness ray franz should be counted as the gb member he would still be if they had not gotten rid of him. scripture says...judge not lest ye be judged. in the manner you have judged you will be judged. just2sheep says...i have been judged, and i have been judged harshly. and now it is my turn... whining and crying won't help you because they didn't help me.

just something to think about while making out your "individuals and groups who should not be judged because (fill in the blank).

j2s

sspo

The apostle Paul was dragging men and women out of their homes and putting them to death, thinking he had the truth and doing God's will until he was shown the light.

He was forced to acknowledge that Judaism was not the right way.

So really does it matter how it happened with Ray Franz, he could have "repented" and play the game of going along with the rest of the GB and hold on to the highest position in the organ. but he did not.

How many know we are not spirit directed at Bethel or in the local congr. and continue playing the game?

For some it is nothing but a "SOCIAL CLUB"

purplesofa

I really can't believe some of the comments I am reading on this thread.

to just2sheep

There comes a time when taking responsiblity for your life and letting go the bad feelings and blame is healing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know how it came up about Ray Franz writing his book for financial gain on this thread, but I think my copy was about $24.00. Hardly anything compared to what I got from reading it........the information was priceless.

Not everything about the WT is bad.......there is always something good to find. When it takes more energy to sift through the BS and make excuses to stay and go against your conscience, leaving is healthy. I find his effort to reach others couragious. He could have very easily done many things to walk away and provide for himself without writing the book ...and spending his life to respond to emails and letters as mentioned in this thread. He obviously is a very smart man and could have done many things when leaving the organization.

I found from reading Ray Franz book, his calm loving manner after all he experianced, the personal suffering of himself and friends..... was encouraging to me. I was able to keep the good and begin to get rid of the bad. He was as much a victim as any of the rest of us. For one, as Blondie mentioned, childless.......Was that a decision to serve the org?

Kudos for him for being a man...........a rare find in the org.

purps

Blueblades

Slim, I don't have my books to fall back on anymore I gave them to a friend of mine who is reading them. I do believe that when Ray came back from the New York Library where he did much research on the 607 BCE. date he found evidence that conflicted with the societies' date about 607 BCE. His uncle Fred Franz refused to hear about it and so Ray complied and went against his conscience at that time and had a hand in writng it (the 607BCE. date) into the Aid book. He acknowledged this years later in his books that he wrote.

As I said, I don't have the information available to me anymore, I do remember what I am here now writing to you about Ray and the 607 BCE. date discussion he had with his uncle Fred. Anyone on this site who can confirm this info please do.

Blueblades

just2sheep

purplesofa,

so what i'm hearing from you is...imperfect man; just get over it. where have i heard that before? it was at the kingdom hall i believe. and not to put too fine a point on it, they left him...he didn't leave them. he didn't leave the gb, they voted him out. he didn't leave the organization, they threw him out. i'm sure he went through a crisis, but i'm not sure it was a crisis of conscience. and your "just get over it" attitude doesn't do anything to convince me it was.

i can't believe your comment to me didn't come straight from the watchtower.

j2s

purplesofa

just2sheep

Please accept my apologies for addressing you personally on this thread.

purps

Raymond Franz is a good man

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