thirdwitness: I reasoned with him that we are still on the same planet earth so just like in Noah's day it will be the same in our day. It is not the planet earth itself that will be destroyed but rather the ungodly men. His reply was: How do you know that the water didn't get so high that Noah ended up on a different planet?
LOL!
Yep, there are people out there that say the most stupid things. Entire planet flooded indeed!
steve
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
stevenyc
-
effe
I read this whole thread and I see that 3W, among other things, keeps defending the argument about heavier and more deadly earthquakes from 1914 until now, compared to the period before 1914. Although AlanF has made it painfully clear that such an "argument" is completely rubbish according to the most specific available data today, it still strikes me that 3W is ready to use the argument when the WT has already abandoned it for about 4 years!! They admit that an increase of number or power is required. Why 3W, are you even willing to defend something that doesn't need to be defended anymore? Does that show how much influence the WT has over you, that you can't even accept new light? Your statistics don't mean anything, not only because you're proven grossly wrong by some posters here (specially AlanF), but they also don't mean a thing to the WTS anymore, because no matter how foolish they are at some reasonings, they do accept that there is no increase in number or power. For your information and entertainment:
*** g02 3/22 p. 9 Earthquakes, Bible Prophecy, and You ***
Earthquakes,
Bible Prophecy, and YouBEFORE his death, Jesus foretold events and situations that would give evidence that this world had entered "the conclusion of the system of things." That period, he said, would be marked by such things as pestilences, food shortages, and large-scale warfare. He also mentioned "great earthquakes" that would occur "in one place after another." (Matthew 24:3, 7; Luke 21:10, 11) Was Jesus referring to our day?
Many say no. They assert that the number of earthquakes has not substantially increased in recent decades. In fact, the U.S. National Earthquake Information Center reports that earthquakes of 7.0 magnitude and greater remained "fairly constant" throughout the 20th century.
Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes. All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. Furthermore, he stated that these events would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.
Earthquakes have indeed caused much distress in our day. In fact, during the 20th century, millions have been killed or left homeless by these disasters. Experts say that many of these deaths could have been prevented. "In developing countries," reports BBC News, "building regulations frequently take second place to the demands for cheap, quickly built housing to meet the needs of rapid urbanisation." Commenting on two recent tragedies, Ben Wisner, an expert in urban disasters, states: "It wasn’t earthquakes that killed these people. It was a combination of human error, indifference, corruption, and greed."
Yes, sometimes the deadliest factors in an earthquake are human selfishness and negligence. Interestingly, such qualities come to the fore in another Bible prophecy concerning "the last days" of this system. During that time, the Bible states, people would be "self-centered, lovers of money," and "callous." (2 Timothy 3:1-5, The Amplified Bible) Along with Jesus’ words regarding the conclusion of the system of things, this prophecy provides clear evidence that we are nearing the time when God will bring relief to distressed humanity from all present causes of pain and suffering—including great earthquakes.—Psalm 37:11.
Would you like to learn more about this Bible-based hope? Contact Jehovah’s Witnesses in your area, or write to the appropriate address on page 5.
[Footnote]
Some say that any reports of an increase in the number of earthquakes are simply due to advances in technology, which enable more seismic events to be detected. By the way: I'm not even going to comment on the foolish "new argumentation" about earthquakes ("All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another." DUH!!!) Greetings, Effe
-
AlanF
In his post # 378 on this page thirdwitness wrote:
: AlanF: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes
: alrighty then. Lets rip Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 out of our Bible and replace it with AlanF 24: 3
The interpretaton that Jesus' words of warning -- not signs -- in Matthew 24 has anything to do with Revelation is purely speculative. Jesus' words in Matthew 24 stand along with the similar words in Mark and Luke and can be fully understood on their own: No signs of Jesus' parousia are given in Mathew 24:4-8. On the contrary, as I've repeatedly shown, his words are a warning against that interpretation. This is especially clear in Luke 21:8, 9:
8 "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."
The Watchtower Society has been proclaiming "The Time Is At Hand" since its very beginning. It still does. The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim "I am he" by claiming to have received a special appointment from God, so that all mankind should listen to them. They've proclaimed "the time is at hand" by writing books with that and similar titles, and by all manner of writings.
In 1994 I challenged Governing Body member Albert Schroeder with this fatal problem. After hemming and hawing for some minutes, he said, "You're not going to let this go until I answer this, are you?" I said No. He said, "This scripture can't apply to us, because we're God's people!" Well of course, that's a direct admission by a GB member that normal Christian rules don't apply to them. What a crock!
Thirdwitness has, as usual, completely ignored 90% or more of my posts disproving his claims, and failed to deal with my arguments. He will ignore almost everything in this post as well. Such gross intellectual dishonesty is a mark of Jehovah's Witnesses.
AlanF
-
thirdwitness
effe said: I read this whole thread and I see that 3W, among other things, keeps defending the argument about heavier and more deadly earthquakes from 1914 until now, compared to the period before 1914. Although AlanF has made it painfully clear that such an "argument" is completely rubbish according to the most specific available data today, it still strikes me that 3W is ready to use the argument when the WT has already abandoned it for about 4 years!! They admit that an increase of number or power is required. Why 3W, are you even willing to defend something that doesn't need to be defended anymore? Does that show how much influence the WT has over you, that you can't even accept new light? Your statistics don't mean anything, not only because you're proven grossly wrong by some posters here (specially AlanF), but they also don't mean a thing to the WTS anymore, because no matter how foolish they are at some reasonings, they do accept that there is no increase in number or power. If you would read every post I have written about earthquakes you would see that I have never claimed that there was an increase in the number of earthquakes or the power of earthquakes. I have always maintained that earthquakes have affected far more lives since 1914 than ever by the number of deaths caused. Over 16,000 per year post 1914 Vs. about 2000 deaths per year pre 1914, that is if we take the highest figures available pre 1914. I agree with the WT 100 percent when it said: Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes. All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. Furthermore, he stated that these events would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.
-
AlanF
In his post # 380, thirdwitness wrote:
: Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.
I've demonstrated that your death statistics are bogus, because the periods 1915-1983, 1847-1914 and 1715-1783 saw virtually the same number of people killed. Furthermore, because the population densities were much lower in the pre-1915 periods, a lot higher percentage of the population was killed. This directly translates into a worse effect on people. I'm sure you'd prefer flying on an airplane with a 0.5% chance of your dying than one with a 5% chance.
Why do you continue ignoring these facts? Why do you keep lying?
AlanF
-
thirdwitness
Here is futher proof that the parousia/days of the Son of man covers more than just the time when God's Kingdom comes to destroy the wicked.First we must establish that the events that John sees in Revelation are events that occur in the Lord’s Day. At Rev 1:10 John writes, "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet…” This clearly establishes that every vision and every happening that John sees are in the Lord’s Day and not before. He then sees in the latter part of chapter one Jesus walking in the midst of the congregations. When? In the Lord’s Day!
Then notice verse 11: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph´e·sus and in Smyr´na and in Per´ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti´ra and in Sar´dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce´a.” He then proceeds to write Jesus’ words to the congregations both commending them as well as counseling them. The point is that the congregations have been established sometime during the Lord’s Day for they exist and are receiving the letters in the Lord’s day.
Let us take note of some of the phrases written to those congregations during the Lord’s Day:
Rev 2:5, “If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”
Rev 2:16, “Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.”Rev 2:25, “Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come.”Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."
Do you notice what these phrases have in common? According to these verses Jesus Christ has not yet come as a thief in the night to execute judgment with the long sword. That is yet future. There is still time to repent. And remember, according to the earlier scripture John was transferred into the Lord’s Day. We can therefore conclude that the Lord’s Day actually begins before his arrival as a thief in the night at Armageddon. -
thirdwitness
Jesus is asked, “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Jesus reply begins like this: "And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet."
Is he talking about the sign of his presence here? Yes. That was the question he is answering. In verse 7 and 8 he gives us more details, “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." The parallel statements above are: 'the end is not yet' and 'a beginning of pangs of distress'. There is indeed some period of time involved before the end actually comes.
Are the wars and reports of wars the same as nation rising against nation? Apparently that would be the case. But a key point to notice is that Jesus did not say but 'my parousia is not yet'. He said, 'but the end is not yet'.When Jesus said, ‘but the end is not yet’ he was making a clear distinction between 'a beginning of pangs of distress' and the coming of God's kingdom to destroy the wicked at Armageddon. This beginning of pangs of distress would also mark the beginning of Christ's parousia for he is after all answering the question: What will be the sign of your parousia?
The riding of the horsemen in Revelation 6 and pangs of distress marking Christ’s presence correspond with one another. Both tell of great war, food shortages, and pestilence. A 'beginning of pangs of distress’ and the riding of the horsemen do not mark the beginning of the Great tribulation or the beginning of Armageddon. Christ’s parousia corresponds to the Lord’s Day and to the time when Jesus would receive a crown and began his ride as king, but not to Armageddon, the Great Tribulation, or the end of the system, although these events do occur at the end of the Lord’s Day or Christ’s parousia.A Guide to 2oth Century Wars makes this comment:
"The 20th century was an era of unprecedented conflict, with wars claiming more victims than ever before. Not only did European wars become truly global for the first time, but the new technologies of violence – from poison gas to the atom bomb – meant that it was easier to kill large numbers of people at the same time. Added to this, wars became total: they were fought with the aim not just of victory, but of annihilating the enemy. And the enemy was no longer simply defined as soldiers, but included civilians."
Here is the link for that sight. http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part05.html
Does that not sound like nation rising against nation! And isn't that exactly what happened during WW I and WW II? For the first time the entire nation including the civilian population was involved in the war on an unprecedented scale, not just the soldiers. In fact, more civilians died in the World Wars than soldiers.
-
Kenneson
Thirdwitness,
The Watchtower's interpretation of the Lord's Day is not the only viable one. Scholars maintain that this is the earliest reference to the dedication of a day of the week to the Lord: the first day, the day after the Sabbath. It was the "Lord's Day" as the day on which He rose (Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:1; Lk. 24:1; Jn. 20:1) John came under the inspiration of the Spirit on a Sunday.
-
AlanF
Thirdwitness, your forays into biblical exposition are getting more fantastical every time you post. This latest on Revelation really takes the cake.You completely ignore several important facts:
(1) Revelation 1:1, 3 clearly indicates that whatever John saw was in the very near future: ". . . the things which must soon take place . . . for the time is near." It's ridiculous to claim that "near" encompasses nearly two thousand years.
(2) John's words in Revelation 1:1, 3 here clearly indicate that he wrote the Revelation just a few years before 70 A.D., in which case his words about the above events being near make sense, being applicable to the soon-to-be-realized destruction of Jerusalem.
(3) The letters to be written to the seven congregations were clearly to be sent immediately after John wrote the Revelation -- right there in the 1st century.
(4) Claiming that these seven letters had something to do with events nearly two thousand years in the future is pure speculation.
Therefore, your post # 381 is worthless. You're grasping mightily at straws.
AlanF
-
thirdwitness
AlanF: 2) John's words in Revelation 1:1, 3 here clearly indicate that he wrote the Revelation just a few years before 70 A.D., in which case his words about the above events being near make sense, being applicable to the soon-to-be-realized destruction of Jerusalem.
Oh ok, so then you believe that God's kingdom begin to rule sometime after 33CE since Revelation includes the prophecy of Satan being thrown out of heaven and God's kingdom taking power at Rev 11 and 12. I thought that you said that Christ began to rule in 33CE after going to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God but wait Paul said in about 61CE at Heb 10:13 that Christ was still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool so that can't be true or was it in 33CE when he was still on earth that he began to rule when he said he had been given 'all authority' .. All does mean all, right?
You sure do contradict yourself alot with your fake Bible interpretations that you don't even believe. You are willing to put forth and support any interpretation except the correct one. Any that disagree with JWs is ok even if they contradict each other and yourself. How intellectually dishonest can you be?