Trinity - HELP!!!

by Hamboozled 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Hamboozled

  Since being in the JW org for close to 35 years (from infant) and recently leaving I have been studying topics like the Trinity because I was never allowed to before. I'm getting so many mixed reviews from the scriptures of whether the trinity is possible or impossible. There are scriptures that back it and then do not back it and I was wondering what some of your thoughts on this topic. In support of Trinity:
  

  • John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
  
  
  • John 8:23-24 : "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."
  
  
  • John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'"
  
  
  • John 10:30 : "I and the Father are one."
  
  
  • John 10:38 : "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
  
  
  • Colossians 2:9 : "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
  
  
  • Revelation 1:17-18 : "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
  
  
  • John 12:41 : "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him." - As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:1 refers to Jesus.

  
  

  
  
  In Non Support of Trinity:
  

  
  
  John 14:28: Jesus said "the father is greater than I".
  

  
  
  1 Corinth 11:3: tells us that "the head of Christ is God and Jesus is God's only begotten son.
  

  
  
  These are only just a few....there are many more that contridict the trinity and that support the trinity. I look forward to each of your thoughts on this topic.
  

  
  
  
• 

  Mysterious

  Personally I do not believe in the bible, god or the deity of jesus christ but I do know what I was told by an evangelical girl in my high school when she briefly tried to convince me to be a mainstream christian after I left the JWs.

  She talked about understanding the trinity in terms of 3 entities that are distinct but part of one whole. Like an egg has a shell, yolk and white. Each part makes up the egg (trinity) and yet each is distinct and can be named in and of itself. She talked about how each part is of a whole but there is still a pecking order if you will father > son > holy spirit and each carries out the dictates of the one above it. Kind of how a general, lieutenant and private could be part of the same company but yet still be distinct and still be ranked. If that makes sense. Anyway that is how she explained discrepencies like "the father is greater than I am". I don't believe it but I thought you might enjoy the perspective.
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  Forscher

  When you get down to it the whole subject is rather muddy Hamboozled!
  Trinitarian theologians themselves admit that the trinity doctrine is illogical an cannot really be understood. Some I've seen even admit that it cannot be definatively proven from the Bible and must be taken on faith. That is consistent with the way the Cappodacian Brothers (three monks from Cappodacia in the fourth century) proposed the doctrine and argued that one had to redefine the words in the New Testament and understand them differently in order to "prove" the trinity doctrine. If you examine trinitarian apologetics carefully you will find that the same sort of reasoning is still used.
  I would say that context is very important when searching the scriptures. Take John 10:30 as one example. The context, mainly the following ten verses are critical to understanding that statement. If you read them with an open mind you will see why they are never mentioned in trinitarian literature.
  Another important clue involves John 1:1. We've seen all the argumentation on that one about how the NWT is wrong, wrong, wrong. But what often doesn't get mentioned is a very important translation of the Bible from the second century. The first translation into a language which has the indefinate article, Coptic, supports the rendering of the NWT. This was reported about a year or so back on this forum I can't find that thread at the moment, but it did inspire me to check it out and start some studies in Sahidic Coptic. I commented on that here:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/114721/2010107/post.ashx#2010107
  I went on to post some links on the subject here:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/114721/2011651/post.ashx#2011651
  Since you are interested in the subject of the Trinity check around the forum, there are plenty of threads devoted to it. All I can say is that you will have to look at the evidence pro and con and make your own decision.
  Forscher
• 

  Matt_fs

  I was following the belief that Jesus was not God till I started reading and listening to articles on my own. I found Walter Martin to be quite helpfull.

  http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/jw/jw.html

  Also, when you click this link, scroll down to "Jehovahs Witnesses, Jesus Christ and the Trinity"

  http://www.jwinfoline.com/Page/audio2.htm

  I found Walter Martin to explain things that really made sense.

  Also on a side note, when I was studying with the JW's, they always brought up the exact same scriptures where Jesus said the father is greater than I, etc. But this is because he took on the form of a servant, came down to our level, made himself lower than the angels, and that is why when he was a human on earth he could say that the Father was greater than him (in position). Notice he didnt say the Father is "better" than I? Hope this helps a bit!

  Cheers

  Matt
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  drew sagan

  The best way i have heard the trinity explained is this way.
  Man has been created in Gods image, and man is a trinity. Body, Soul and Spirit.
  Body, Soul and Spirit. The Body is Christ, the Spirit is the Holy Ghost, and the Soul is the Eternal Father.
  Here is how I feel on the subject:
  It seems to me that there are good arguments either way. Think about John 1:1 If Jesus is 'a' god that means that he is ANOTHER god and we know there is only ONE TRUE GOD. Other scriptures have been changed by JWs to take away the power that Christ recieves in scripture.
  In the end the Bible simply isn't clear on the subject, and the JWs 'proof' that the trinity is a flawed doctrine many times will fall flat as well. Their own 'trinity' brochure is full of poor reasonings and bad research as well as only partial quotes from scolars.
  I think the most important thing is to realize that if there is a trinity or not is still dosn't change the fact that the Watchtower distorts the Bibles view of Jesus Christ. HE IS the message of the gospel, not some modern day organization and 'remnant' group.
  With this in mind I have really not let the trinity bother me either way. I can see how people when reading the Bible can get that idea and respect their opinion, if someone holds a differant opinion then they have a right to as well. I just don't think it is an issue worth getting divided over.
  Remember too that the JWs use it as a way to push forward group dominance. It's a technique used by high controll groups in order to influence you with mind controll. They will say 'look we are the only people that believe this so we must be right!'. The way they have used their arguements in order to create loyal organizational members weakens their own arguements and validity in my opinion.
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  elatwra

  In support of the trinity:

  Mathew 1:23They shall call his name Immanuel which is translated "God with us"

  Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a child was born, unto us a son is given and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,Mighty God, Everlasting father, Prince of Peace

  John 8:58 Most assuredly I say to you before Abraham was born born I am.

  Zachariah 12:10(Jehovah speaking) they will look on me whom they pierced, yes they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son.

  Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD (Jehovah) the king of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts:"O am the first I am the Last Besides me there is no God"

  Revelation 1:8 I am the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty

  Revelation 22:13 (Jesus speaking) I the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end the first and the last.

  Acts 4:10 (peter speaking) let it be known to you all and to the people of Israel, that by the name 0of Jesus Christ of nazareth, whom you crucified whom God raised from the dead by him this man stands before you whole.This is the stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.Nor is there salvation in any other under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

  there is more but i don't have them handy right now. i hope this helps your search.
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  Shazard

  First you need to understand what IS trinty. And also you have to get some background in Christology (how Christ can be 100% man and 100% God). Scriptures you cited "against" trinity is not against if you understand what Trinity actually is!
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  mdb

  I sent you a personal message. Check your PM box.
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  plmkrzy

  So is Jesus a source of communication or a literal word? Is he a verb a noun or an adjective?
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  Flash

  There are a number of scriptures that 'appear' to support the Trinity yet those scriptures that do not support it are very clear on the subject. Plus sometimes being a 'God' is just a figuer of speech. Please take the time to look these up:

  Exodus 7: 1

  John 20: 17

  1Corinthians 8: 6 and 15: 24~28

  Philippians 2: 5~7

  Proverbs 8: 22~31

  Colossians 1: 15~17