Sophistry Lessons—JW Baptismal Prerequisites

by AuldSoul 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    shadow: I don't see that these references refute the need for some level of knowldege and a dedication to Jehovah.

    Shadow,

    Acts 10:30-48 shows Cornelius, a Roman army officer who may have had some knowledge but was not yet a proselyte. Peter speaks less than 200 Greek words to Cornelius and while he is speaking Cornelius and his entire family receive the Holy Ghost and begin speaking in tongues. Peter immediately baptizes them all. Neither Cornelius nor his family were required to make a dedication, and Cornelius was not required to retire from the military office he held. Cornelius was not required to attend a single Christian meeting, was not required to regularly preach the Good News for as many months as required by the local elder body, and was not required to demonstrate the depth of his Bible knowledge to anyone prior to baptism.

    Acts 16:11-15 shows Lydia, a Thyatirian seller of purple, listening to one brief message preached (not teaching, but preaching) by the disciples and then she and her whole household were baptized. Lydia was not required to attend a single Christian meeting, was not required to regularly preach the Good News for as many months as required by the local elder body, and was not required to demonstrate the depth of her Bible knowledge to anyone prior to baptism. If she made a dedication it is not specified.

    Acts 16:25-34 shows a Philippian jailer who, after one late night or early morning conversation with Paul and Silas was baptized, together with his whole household, "without delay." Neither the Philippian jailer nor his family were required to make a dedication, and he was not required to retire from post. He was not required to attend a single Christian meeting, was not required to regularly preach the Good News for as many months as required by the local elder body, nor required to preach to anyone, for that matter, and was not required to demonstrate the depth of his Bible knowledge to anyone prior to baptism. This despite the stated fact that he had formerly not believed in God.

    If these are pre-baptismal requirements for Christians, why were they not required of those desiring to become Christians? If they are requirements prior to baptism, why are they not found anywhere in the Bible as requirements?

    I can provide Scriptures proving that Christians were validly baptized without meeting the requirements of Jehovah's Witnesses. Can you provide Scriptures showing that JW requirements for baptism are God's requirements?

    I understand why you want to shift the burden to me, but I've met my burden, and then some. I wasn't required to have an alternate perspective in order to require support for the perspective of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I have provided one anyway. One solidly founded on the Bible.

    I am still waiting for a JW to meet the burden of Scripturally supporting this doctrine.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • saki2fifty
    saki2fifty

    I try to be as thorough as possible, and I am currently reading through several books... and bible to make my case. You'll have your answer soon.

    And yes, I do understand you want your answer based from scripture only... as opposed to what you have currently received.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I'll be looking forward to your findings. Please keep in mind what I posted to you earlier, though:

    As you study, keep in mind that I am not saying that any of these are things Christians should not do, I am only saying there is no basis for calling any of them Scriptural requirements prior to baptism except for repentance and conversion.

    Our discussion on another thread regarding Matthew 28:19, 20 seemed to indicate you might be straying into asserting Christian requirements on people who are not yet baptized. It has to be Scriptures referring to requirements for unbaptized persons. Otherwise, it would be like holding everyone in the congregation to the standards set out in Timothy for older men. Those requirements ONLY apply to older men.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • heathen
    heathen

    I agree that the WTBTS goes beyond what is written . If you were to say that during the brainwashing study time they would consider you spiritually weak anyway so the baptism would be delayed until the elders approve of your progress .There's plenty of scripture that shows all it takes is faith and then people are dunked such as the ethiopian eunich the 5 thousand man crowd in Acts of apostles . I really don't like the belief they have of , if you only believe the WTBTS has the truth then you are saved without baptism should you die before you get dunked or the kingdom takes over the earth . No scriptural grounds for that at all .

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I keep hoping one day I see a post in this thread containing the Scriptures that support all the things Jehovah's Witnesses require of people prior to being baptized. They say the Bible teaches these as requirements for baptism. But they can't show me the Scriptures. Then they claim that God's organization bases all its teaching and standards of conduct on the Bible.

    Reasoning From the Scriptures (1989) p. 283-284 Organization
    How can Jehovah’s visible organization in our day be identified?...
    (3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
    ...

    If this is true, where is the Scripture that says persons MUST preach or attend meetings prior to baptism? If all teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses are not based on the Bible, are they really God's visible organization on earth today? According to their own standard of identification, they are not. They cannot be unless ALL its teachings are based on the Bible.

    Still waiting patiently.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Maybe today we will see the Scriptures?

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Maybe today we will see the Scriptures? I waited four whole days to bump this again. We had Shadow AND saki2fifty doing research on this specific issue and no Scriptures yet. Maybe they will at least check in with what they have discovered, or have not discovered, or what they have discovered that they have not, as the case may be. Respectfully,
    AuldSoul (of the "Twiddling Thumbs and Humming 'We're Jehovah's Witnesses' While Wearing a Teasing Grin" class)

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    hey AuldSoul.....I just for the first time noticed this thread.........I want to read this when I am not so tired.......I know you did alot of work on it.

    purps

  • saki2fifty
    saki2fifty

    Regarding this topic, i've been reading through a lot of books, Organzied to do Jehovah Will, ... to Accomplish our Ministry, Reasoning from the Scriptures, What does the Bible Really Teach, United in Worship, Insight Books, etc. and of course the Bible; KJ and NWT. Even though I feel as though I found some interesting things, I admit that I will not be able to defend this topic regarding my beliefs. I know you will shread it to pieces, for your knowledge apparently seems unlimited.

    Of course, the 607 topic is wasting away all of my spare time... the little of it that I have.

    ------------
    Saki2fifty (of the "Standing Upright and Respectfully Singing the Song of Praise "'We're Jehovah's Witnesses" While Displaying a Joyful Smile" class)

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    607...so overdone. Maybe I can find a more interesting research subject for you, Saki, like a bible principle the Watchtower society bombs at. One that comes to mind is the appalling lack of variety in congregational duties. Everyone has the same job, and the progression of responsibilities from MS to PO are so mundane. I mean, scraping for the opportunity to pass the mike? What is up with that? Is it well and right that women had greater responsibility in the congregation in the first century than in the modern Watchtower society? Even Russell's wife was more involved than the Jehovah's Witness women of today.

    And where are the musicians? The children's workers? The ministry of helps?

    Acts 6:1-6, Romans 12:3-5, Romans 16:1-16, I Cor 12:27-30

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