Waters Above the Firmament, the source of rain?

by VM44 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos....It's true that, outside of Genesis 6-7 (where only in the redaction is J's "rain" associated with P's "watery deep/windows of heaven") it is only in extrabiblical sources that the heavenly waters are directly connected with "rain" and "clouds", e.g. 3 Baruch 10:6 which construes the heavenly lake waters as "that which the clouds receive to send as rain upon the earth". But the way P associates the verb ptch "open" with 'rbwt "window" in Genesis 7:11, 8:2 is still parallel to 2 Kings 7:2, 19 and Malachi 3:10 where the two words are used to refer to ordinary rain, presumably delivered by clouds. And the two are also used in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle to refer to Baal "opening a rift in the clouds" (KTU 1.4 vii 25-39) to bring rain on the earth, so the connection between "opening the windows of heaven" and clouds was something inherited from Canaanite cosmology. I agree that there is not one single cosmological system in OT texts.

    The Society's discussion of the matter in the Insight book involves much special pleading. If material from Job, Genesis, or other OT books diverges from modern cosmology or scientific knowledge, the Society claims that the references are "figurative". But if they somehow can be construed as coinciding with modern knowledge, all of a sudden the statements in the very same books are no longer figurative but "scientifically accurate". If the statements are to be dismissed as mere poetic turns of phrase, one should also recall that the Baal Cycle, the Enuma Elish, etc. are poetic compositions as well, and thus all the mythological elements in them could be dismissed as figurative poetic metaphors....and thus we could also credit the ancient Canaanites or Babylonians with modern scientific knowledge in those rare instances when they describe things that could be construed in some strained way as reflecting scientific accuracy.

    So the statement in Job 37:18 is taken to be a mere poetic metaphor:

    That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word "skies" here comes from a word (sha´chaq) also rendered "film of dust" or "clouds" (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.

    The text does use a metaphor (kr'y mwtsq "as a cast-bronze mirror"), but the Society inverts the figurative relation. They claim that the author is comparing the brightness of the sky to a figurative beating out of a metal mirror (which becomes reflective in the process). But the actual simile is that beating out a cast bronze mirror (which becomes reflective in the process) is figurative of God's beating out of the heavens. The Society's explanation thus embeds a simile within another metaphor (a rather unnatural reading), and it turns on shchq "skies" indicating the brightness of the sky (like a "mirror"), but the root has the sense of "rub away, beat fine, pulverize" (cf. Exodus 30:36, 2 Samuel 22:43, Job 14:19, Psalm 18:42), which naturally relates to trqy` "beat out" -- the very meaning they want to dismiss as figurative.

    And while this whole passage is viewed as figurative, the similar nature poetry of the preceding chapter (ch. 36) is suddenly regarded as non-figurative, as a naturalistic scientifically-accurate description of the water cycle (Job 36:27-38). But this "accuracy" is more an artifact of the translation in the NWT ("For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly") and some other versions (such as the NIV), than is justified by the original Hebrew. The "scientific accuracy" turns on how the verb gr` in 36:27 is rendered; in the NWT, it is translated "he draws up", which is suggestive of evaporation, but it usually means "draw away" or "diminish" (cf. Exodus 5:8, 19, 21:10, Deuteronomy 12:32, Jeremiah 26:2, Ezekiel 5:11) or "restrain", "withdraw", or "take from" (cf. Job 15:4, 8, 36:7, Ecclesiastes 3:14), so the highly suggestive "draw up" is not entailed by the Hebrew...one could otherwise say "He draws away the drops of water" or "He restrains the drops of water", etc. The Aramaic rendering in 11Q10 (tho fragmentary) and the LXX render the verb as "to count, number", suggesting a different way of understanding the verse (and connecting it to v. 26): "He numbers the clouds of water, and the storms of rain pass by, and his clouds bring down drops of water on many people". Another uncertainty is 'dw in v. 27 (= Genesis 2:3), which probably does not mean "mist" and which may mean "flood" or "cloud" (as it is in 11Q10 and the LXX).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    So after calling the expanse Heaven, the Bible writer uses the phrase "in the expanse of the heavens". As the expanse is Heaven this could read "in the expanse of the expanse" which does not immediately make any sense.

    It is the so-called "epexegetical genitive" which is very common in Semitic languages, although not limited to them. The construction "x of y" actually means "x which is y" -- here, "in the raqia`, that is, heaven".

    And when did Heaven became plural (heavens)?

    "Heaven(s)," shamayim, is a default plural in Hebrew (there is no singular form) -- like "water(s)," mayim, and many other words. There is no plural sense unless the context suggests one (as in "heavens of heavens," or the 3, 5 or 7 heavens of apocalypticism).

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    VM44...The notion that the heavens are stretched out like a tent or cloth, and that they will roll up or go slack during the god's theophany, is also found in earlier Ugaritic sources. Compare the following:

    KTU 1.5 i 1-4: "When you smite Lotan (ltn) the fleeing serpent (btn brch), finish off the twisting serpent (btn 'qltn), the close-coiling one with seven heads, the heavens will wither and go slack like the folds of your tunic".
    Isaiah 27:1, 34:4: "That day Yahweh, with his hard sword, will punish Leviathan (lwytn) the fleeing serpent (nchs brych), Leviathan the twisting serpent (nchs 'qlltn), he will kill the sea-dragon (tnyn 'sr b-ym) ... All the host of heaven will wither away, and the heavens will roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree."
    Psalm 102:25-27: "The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you endure; they all will wear out like a garment. You change them like a raiment, and they pass away."
  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    But the way P associates the verb ptch "open" with 'rbwt "window" in Genesis 7:11, 8:2 is still parallel to 2 Kings 7:2, 19 and Malachi 3:10 where the two words are used to refer to ordinary rain, presumably delivered by clouds. And the two are also used in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle to refer to Baal "opening a rift in the clouds" (KTU 1.4 vii 25-39) to bring rain on the earth, so the connection between "opening the windows of heaven" and clouds was something inherited from Canaanite cosmology.

    One problem in Genesis 7:11f; 8:2 as they stand (from the redactional merging of at least two stories) is how many elements make up the "flood". Should we read "(1) all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and (2) the windows of the heavens were opened, and (3) the rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights," and "(1) the fountains of the deep and (2) the windows of the heavens were closed, and (3) the rain from the heavens was restrained"? Or "(1) all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and (2) the windows of the heavens were opened, and the rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights," and "(1) the fountains of the deep and (2) the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained"? It is clear that (1), water from below, has nothing to do with either (2) or (3), but it is not clear whether (2) and (3) are to be identified. The construction of 8:2, one single verb skr (close, shut up) for (1) and (2), and another, kl' (restrain, hold back) for (3) suggests that they are not, but this is debatable.

    Both 2 Kings 7 and Malachi 10 involve hyperbole, which may suggest (imo) something more than ordinary rain. Also note that in 2 Kings the (unreal) assumption is not that Yhwh would open the extant 'arubboth ha-shamayim (as in Genesis or Malachi) but that he would make (`sh) 'arubboth ba-shamayim, which is a variation in the cosmological pattern.

    So as a whole I think that we lack evidence from the Hebrew Bible for the identification of the "windows of heaven" as a cause for ordinary rain, as is clear from the earlier Ras Shamra texts and the later apocalypses.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    does not nature teach you ?

    The observance of the natural world and the 'way things are' teaches about the spiritual world, rather than a 'spiritual explaination for the way things are' - it's reflected - For now we see in a mirror dimly

    Water comes from above - it's natural, people know it, and unused it runs up in the sea (and you can dig for fresher stuff)

    The firmament is the kingdom of heaven, separated from the waters that are above "whoever drinks the water that I shall give him" and the waters that are below

  • Woodsman
  • sinis
    sinis

    So does Gary's picture prove that the JW's are WRONG? They say that the Bible writers knew that the Earth was round, yet the Jewish picture might allude to that it is not true in the total sense.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos...Okay, I took another look at 2 Kings 7 and agree that something more extraordinary than the mere stoppage of a famine may be in play here, specifically with the immediacy of the blessing...perhaps grain itself falling from heaven is intended here? Psalm 78:23 has a similar expression, but interestingly it connects the raining down of manna with the "clouds" or "skies":

    "He commanded the clouds (schqym) above, and opened (ptch) the doors of heaven (dlty shmym), and had rained down (ymtr) manna upon them to eat, and had given them the wheat of heaven (dgn shmym)".

    The heavenly "storehouses" of hail and snow suggest that storehouses of food (= v. 25, "angel's food") were also placed in the heavens, but the lower schqym (whether "clouds" or "skies") seem to be involved in delivering this food to man, and note that the word mtr "rain" is associated with the opening (ptch) of the "doors" of heaven. Would the more extraordinary nature of the references to the "windows of heaven" in Genesis and 2 Kings be attributable to a direct downpour from the heavenly "waters above the firmament" (as found in P's creation narrative, and in Psalm 148:4), rather than through the intermediacy of clouds? This was the suggestion of E. F. Sutcliffe in his VT article on the subject. There are other passages which seem to connect ordinary "rain" with openings in heaven itself that can be "closed":

    "The land into which you are to cross to make it your own is a land of hills and valleys watered by the rain from heaven (l-mtr h-shmym).... I will give your land rain (mtr) in season, autumn rain and spring (b`tw ywrh w-mlqwsh), so that you may harvest your corn, your wine, your oil. I shall provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and have all you want. Take care your heart is not seduced, that you do not go astray ... or the anger of Yahweh will blaze out against you, he will restrain/close up the heavens (y`tsr 't-h-shmym) and there will be no rain (mtr) and the land will not yield its produce" (Deuteronomy 11:11, 14, 16-17).

    2 Kings 8:35 has a similar sense of shutting up the heavens during a time of famine, and this phrase can hardly be unrelated to the references to "making" windows of heaven in the preceding chapter. So even tho the "making" of these openings is presented as bringing extraordinary relief, saying "When the heavens were shut up there was no rain" implies to me that "When the heavens are open there is rain". And Deuteronomy 28:12 thus says: "Yahweh will open the heavens (yptch h-shmym) to you, his rich treasure house, to give you seasonable rain (mtr) for your land". "Restraining" or "closing up" the heavens in Deuteronomy and the "restraining of the downpour from heaven" in Genesis 8:2 also appear to be variations of the same theme. The idea that clouds are water-filled vessels sent to deliver water to the earth appears in Job 38:37 ("Who has the wisdom to count the clouds (schqym)? Who can tip over the waterskins of heaven (nbly-shmym)"), and Job 26:8 has God "binding up the waters in his thick clouds, and yet they do not burst under their weight". The latter text, which also describes the defeat of the chaos monster and the limiting of the extent of the earthly deep, resembles the text in 38:8-10: "Who pent up the sea behind closed doors when it leapt tumultuous out of the womb, when I wrapped it in a robe of mist, and made black clouds its swaddling bands, when I marked the bounds it was not to cross and made it fast with a bolted gate? Come thus far, I said, and no farther, here your proud waves shall break". Elsewhere the author says that God "loads the clouds with water and scatters his lightning through them" (37:11), and "spreads out the clouds and thunders from his pavilion" (36:29), and "spreads his clouds over the face of the full moon" (26:9), and "thick clouds veil him so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens" (22:14), and also refers to the "clouds" as "a multitude of waters (shp`t-mym)" (38:34). I'm not sure what to make of this, but perhaps the author does not construe of a heavenly ocean but a layer of water-filled clouds in heaven?

    There are some interesting statements in later rabbinical sources as well on how the clouds receive their water. In Ta'anith 9b, R. Joshua states that "clouds rose up and ascended to the firmament and opened their mouths as a waterskin and received the rainwater". Bereshith Rabba also states: "The Holy One, blessed be he, took all the primeval waters and placed them half in the firmament and half in the ocean...The firmament resembled a lake, and above the lake is a vault; and on account of the heat of the lake the vault exudes heavy drops of water, which pass down through the salt waters without mingling with them" (4.4-5). What the cloud then does is deliver the water in individual drops, as through a sieve (13.10). In fact, the explanation of shchqym (which as one may recall is related to "beat" or "grind") is that the cloud grinds the water down into individual drops.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Very interesting stuff Leolaia. The rabbinical explanations are quite reminiscent of Job 36:27f (btw the NRSV too unwarrantedly translates "he draws up the drops of water," anachronistically reading evaporation into the text). One should note also that this description of "soft rain" is quite different from the storm, which involves a "channel" (38:25) rather than the sieve/filter of clouds...

    sinis, afaik there is absolutely nothing in the Hebrew Bible that suggests a spherical earth. The simplest explanation for the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22) is the experience of the horizon, which intuitively suggests a disk rather than a sphere.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Oh yeah, I forgot another important text:

    "He stretches out the heavens like a tent and lays the beams of his upper chambers on the waters...He waters the mountains from his upper chambers; the earth is satisfied by the fruit of his work" (Psalm 104:2-3, 13).

    Since Psalm 104 may underlie the scenario in Genesis 1 (cf. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/73734/1.ashx), this may have been an influence on Genesis 1:6-8. The description of the palace being built, and "on the waters", recalls the building of Baal's palace after his defeat of Yamm (Sea) on the cosmic mountain where the battle took place.

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