Waters Above the Firmament, the source of rain?

by VM44 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Another important element is that the Hebrew word usually translated as "flood" (mabbul) did not originally mean "pouring rain" or "inundation" (i.e. an "event") but referred to the "waters above," even in their static condition. Psalm 29:10, "Yhwh sits enthroned on-in-at (le) the mabbul."

    This also makes sense in most occurrences of mabbul within the Genesis story; it is not a flood, but the waters above (note the article) falling on the earth : 6:17, "I am bringing the mabbul / waters upon the earth"; 7:6, "the mabbul was waters upon the earth," 7 "to escape the waters of the mabbul," 10 "the waters of the mabbul were upon the earth," 17 "the mabbul was on the earth forty days," 9:11a, "never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the mabbul". Only in 9:11b,15,28; 10:1,32 the mabbul seems to describe an event.

    As I said in my previous post, within the Hebrew Bible the connection of the "waters above" with ordinary rain is at most unclear and/or rare. And when talking ancient Hebrew cosmology we must keep in mind that it did not necessarily make up one consistent system (as the diagram we obtain by adding up all the apparent cosmological clues in the Bible, although those might have belonged to different representations), and that the most developed cosmological systems (such as the priestly one in the creation and flood stories) were probably not very widespread.

  • VM44
    VM44

    The Insight book attempts to argue that the Bible does not imply that the "firmament" or "expanse" was of a solid material. --VM44

    EXPANSE

    Concerning the second creative period, or "day," Genesis 1:6-8 states: "And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qi´a?] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven." Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in "the expanse of the heavens," and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth "upon the face of the expanse of the heavens."—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.

    The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·re´o·ma (meaning "a firm and solid structure") to translate the Hebrew ra·qi´a?, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qi´a? by the word "firmament." However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading "expansion," and the American Standard Version gives "expanse" in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—"expanse" (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); "expansión" (VM [Spanish]); "étendue [extent or expanse]" (Segond; Ostervald [French]).

    Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: "But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament]."—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.

    While it is true that the root word (ra·qa?´) from which ra·qi´a? is drawn is regularly used in the sense of "beating out" something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: "With him can you beat out [tar·qi´a?] the skies hard like a molten mirror?" That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word "skies" here comes from a word (sha´chaq) also rendered "film of dust" or "clouds" (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.

    So, too, with the "expanse" produced on the second creative "day," no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.

    That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, "Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron," thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.

    Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal "windows" in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: "For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qim´] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly." Likewise, the expression "floodgates [’arub·both´] of the heavens" clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.

    In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes "the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice" over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.

    Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qi´a? is certainly in harmony with the known facts.

    In the Psalms "the expanse," along with "the heavens," is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1.

  • blondie
    blondie

    VM44, you might be interested in this WT publication: Creation

    bookhttp://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/creation/creationtitles.html

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Its a fairly deceptive technique the WT and others use when translating. Choose an English word with a broad and varied usage when translating then slide over to an alternate meaning. Example: Hebrew word for solid dome/firmament that expands over othe earth is turned into "expansion/expanse" which can be interpreted as empty space.

    Similarly deceptive is the attempt to manipulate the few passages in the Bible by isolating them from their Near Eastern context. Note that the Insight article did not deny that this model of cosmology was the norm among Israel's neighbors, it just denies that when the Hebrew writers used the identical language they meant the same thing as their uninspired "pagan" counterparts.

  • VM44
    VM44

    Note that the Insight writer mentions that "The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·re´o·ma (meaning "a firm and solid structure") to translate the Hebrew ra·qi´a?" and then does not discuss this fact any further.

    The Septuagint (or LXX) was produced by 70 Jewish scholars, so why would they have chosen a greek word meaning "a firm and solid structure" to translate ra·qi´a?"

    The Insight author also does not carefully go over the description of the "expanse" or "firmament" as given in Genesis 1, but rather spends most of his article trying to explain why the expanse could not be of solid metal.

    Notice also that the Insight author fails to mention what Josephus wrote concerning the firmament. A discusion of Josephus' description of the firmament as "crystalline" would have been of more use than showing that the Jewish writers did not think the sky was made of polished metal.

    This article leaves one feeling with the feeling that it is trying to influence rather than inform the reader by giving arguments that merely sound good.

    --VM44

  • VM44
    VM44

    hi blondie,

    Ah, that book is truly the Original Creation book being as it was published in 1927.

    This book contains a description of Isaac Newton Vail's Earth's Annular Cloud Canopy theory that was endorsed by the Russell in his books and the Society for years.

    This book also contains a picture of Jesus with a halo!

    Thank you for the link to the book.

    --VM44

  • VM44
    VM44

    Here is what Rutherford wrote about the firmament in the Creation (1927) book. --VM44

    Firmament

    The visible arch of the sky which we behold when we look aloft is called the firmament. It is a great aerial expanse wherein are the atmosphere and ether surrounding the earth. The work of the second creative day or period was devoted to preparing this great expanse and to dividing the waters. The firmament is called heaven because it is high and lofty, above the earth. "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so." — Genesis 1: 6-8.

    All the rings formed by the rising vapors surrounding the earth necessarily contained great quantities of water, as well as carbon and other mineral substances. These revolved with greater rapidity near the equator and gradually spread out like an envelope toward the poles until they enveloped the earth as a canopy. As these rings neared the poles their motion was retarded, and both the weight and the retarded velocity caused them to fall. As each one fell, necessarily great pools of water or bodies of water were precipitated upon the earth. All the mineral substances taken up in solution were brought down at the poles and were rushed on toward the equator.

    There would then, of course, be water upon the earth and waters above the earth. The prophet of God sustains this conclusion in the inspired Word when he says: "Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me" (Psalm 42: 7); "Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains." (Psalm 104:6; Proverbs 8:27,28; Job 38:39 9-11) By the falling of these aqueous rings or canopies the oceans were formed, and these great bodies on the earth were separated from the deep above the earth by the firmament. The firmament was not holding up the water; the great deep above the earth was held there by virtue of the fact that it was rapidly revolving in its orbit. In the same way a flying machine remains in the air above the earth when in motion, but when it stops its forward movement it falls.

    The firmament merely served to form a division between the waters on the earth and the great deep far out from and surrounding the earth. We understand the formation to be something like this: First the earth; then the firmament or earth's atmosphere; and beyond that many rings containing heavy carbon and other minerals and sublimations, the lighter rings containing hydro-carbons being still further from the earth, and the outermost ring being principally water. The firmament above the earth God called heaven.

  • VM44
    VM44

    You can see that Rutherford added a considerable amount of detail that is not given in the sciptures. --VM44

  • VM44
    VM44

    It is interesting that the Insight author did not quote in this article on the expanse one of the Watchtower's favorite scriptures it uses when the subject of the scientific accuracy of the Bible is discussed.

    Isaiah 40:22

    "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,"

    Note that this scripture portreys Jehovah as "streching out the heavens", and the poetic imagery suggests the heavens are a "tent" over a flat circular earth in which the dwellers (humans) are as small as grasshoppers.

    The Insight writer did NOT want to bring up this sort of Biblical imagery in this article.

    --VM44

    Edited to add: Or perhaps the Watchtower writers would have us believe that the writer of Isaiah wanted to portray the imagery of a tent covering a sphere? Or perhaps a spherical tent covering a spherical earth completely?

    To imply such is to destroy the original poetic meaning the author of Isaiah intended for the words he used.

    --VM44

  • VM44
    VM44

    Other scriptures where it is mentioned that Jehovah stretched out the heavens. --VM44

    (Isaiah 42:5) This is what the [true] God, Jehovah, has said, the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it:

    (Isaiah 48:13) Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they may keep standing together.

    Also a curious use of the words "expanse" and "heavent" in Genesis 1.

    In verse 8 it says "And God began to call the expanse Heaven." A few verses later in verse 14 it is written that "Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night;"

    So after calling the expanse Heaven, the Bible writer uses the phrase "in the expanse of the heavens". As the expanse is Heaven this could read "in the expanse of the expanse" which does not immediately make any sense. And when did Heaven became plural (heavens)?

    --VM44

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