Book study and not Bible study and trinity question

by Sacchiel 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sacchiel

  
  One of the things we are studying is how the Bible is God's inspired and faithful word. A paragraph mentioned how we should really study the Bible with the aid of their book if we really appreciate the ransom.

  At least nobody responded with such words, but instead we should study the Bible.

  I've got a question, in regards to the passage "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only". The WT books poses a question, if the trinity is real, why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned?

  This is about the only logical question the WT offers? Any ideas?
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  Flash

  ...we are studying is how the Bible is God's inspired and faithful word.

  It is my opinion that the Bible 'contains' God's word but it is not in its entirety "the word of God." Its evident to me that men were inspired by degree during the writting, thoughts, feelings and opinions of other people beside God are clearly recorded in the bible.

  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only". The WT books poses a question, if the trinity is real, why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned?

  This is about the only logical question the WT offers? Any ideas?

  This is an example of where, I believe, their reasoning is correct. I believe their Primary Teachings are correct, but the rest of the dogma about their "organization" is deliberate manipulation for control.
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  moggy lover

  Hi Sacchiel. Good question and one that is not exactly new. I used to ask the same question with the urging of the WTS when I was a blind follower of the WTS.And this was back in the mid-70s.

  There are in fact several ways in which those who, like me, uphold the uncompromising belief in the Trinity can answer a silly conundrum such as this.

  1. If such is the case with the Holy Spirit, the same may be asserted of the WT "god" joehoover. Did he "know" that Adam and and Eve would sin, when he created them? According to the WTS, he did not. It then must follow, with infallible logic, that in that particular moment of time, jojogod was'nt in fact "god" In order to answer this conundrum, the WTS asserts that "god" excercised his ability of witholding foreknowledge, so that it was in fact only when the first pair sinned that joegod knew about it. Evidently this ability that "god" is supposed to have is limited by WT "logic" to the WT god alone. When orthodox Christians use it for the Holy Spirit, the WTS whines about this being a foul.

  2. Such a view of the True God of the Bible, who is transendent above all limitations, and who exists in a dimension beyond human capabilty of comprehsion but which is defined as infinity, requiring to "learn" nothing since He is omniscient at all times, is in fact an insult to Him. With their puny limited vision, the WTS has fashioned a pagan concept of god which limits him into a physics defined matrix. This make "god" understandable, but not in fact God.

  3. The next thing to say is that theology is not arrived at by the use of conundrums. The Saducees learned this to their cost. Because they used a conundrum which was appently infallible, they refused to believe in the resurrection. [Matt 22:23] Jesus reminded them that they neither knew the "power of God" nor understood the scriptures.

  4. Theology is arrived at by reading the revelation contained in Scripture. And the testimony is clear that the Holy Spirit is Omniscient, thus knowing all things at all times. [1 Cor 2:10] If that is so, then why did Jesus evidently omit to mention the Holy Spirit at Mar 13:32?

  Well, without going into too many controversial details, suffice it to say that Christians believe that Christ had within His being two what are called "natures", one inherent in His Being, that of Deity, and one acquired at the Incarnation, that of humanity. This latter "nature" limited Him in certain ways. Speaking as a human His ability to divine the specifics of the Holy Spirit was limited, as indeed is the same as all of us. Speaking as a human being do you know where your uncle Charlie is? No? Well do you know if Aunt Ethel knows? No? Welcome to the world of humanity. This was the case with Jesus Evidently at that time He was unaware of whether or not the Holy Spirit knew, because He was speaking as a human being for He had limited acess to this information. Neither did He know this information for Himself. In neither case did it ultimately impinge on either Him, or the Holy Spirit being Deity.

  Hope this helps

  Cheers
• 

  garybuss

  http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

  http://merlin2.alleg.edu/employee/h/hmccull/fs/danders/shermer.html

  http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
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  Mary

  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only". The WT books poses a question, if the trinity is real, why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned? This is about the only logical question the WT offers? Any ideas?

  Sorry hon, can't help you.....the idea that Jesus was not God, but a man is one of the few things the Organization teaches that I still believe.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Hello Sacchiel,

  About your question about the Holy Spirit.... Check this out:

  In John 6:46, Jesus Christ said this (Scriptures from "The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible"/LITV):

  " not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God, He has seen the Father."

  But, then in Matthew 18:10, Jesus Christ said this:

  "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in Heaven continually look on the face of My Father in Heaven."

  In the Bible, it is extremely important to look at the context and understand what Jesus is truly saying. In John 6:46, Jesus said that ONLY HE had seen The Father, and He did not mention the fact that the angels also see The Father in Heaven. The reason for this is because in John 6:46 Jesus is making the point that no HUMAN on earth has ever seen The Father except for Jesus, so He did not need to bring the angels into his discussion. Jesus was not discussing the angels in John 6:46.

  So, just because Jesus uses the word "Only" in a certain context does not always mean that Jesus was saying "Only" in the absolute sense.

  Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only".

  When He said that, Jesus had not yet spoken to His Apostles about the coming of the Holy Spirit (John Chapters 14-16), and so they may not have known much about Him yet. Notice this Scripture:

  John 7:39 (LITV): But He said this concerning the Spirit, whom the ones believing into Him were about to receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

  The Spirit had not yet been given to the Apostles in the fullest way. Jesus probably did not want to confuse His disciples any more than necessary by mentioning a THIRD Person in Matthew 24:36 that He had not yet told them much about.

  Jesus did not want to bring the Holy Spirit, a Person whom the Apostles hardly knew anything about at this point, into the picture until He could explain to them about who this Spirit is (John Chapters 14-16).

  Also, in the New Testament, nearly always, whenever it mentions an attribute or title of One of the Persons of the Trinity, it is true of ALL 3 Persons.

  For example: The New Testament says Jesus is our ONLY Lord (Jude 1:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6), but it also says that The Father is our Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, Acts 4:29, Revelation 11:15). The New Testament also says that The Holy Spirit is Lord (2 Corinthians 3:13).

  The New Testament says Jesus Christ is the Only Judge (John 5:22, Romans 14:10-12), but it also says that God is the Judge (1 Corinthians 5:13, Hebrews 12:23, Hebrews 13:4).

  The New Testament says that The Father is "The Only True God" (John 17:3), but it also says that Jesus is God (John 20:28, John 1:1, Romans 9:5, 1 John 5:20).

  The New Testament says that God is the One who "knows the hearts" of people (Acts 1:24), but it also says that Jesus is the One who knows the hearts (Revelation 2:23).

  So, when the New Testament makes a statement that One of the Three Persons of the Trinity is the "Only" One who has a certain quality or attribute, it does NOT exclude the other Two Persons from also having that quality or attribute.

  In fact, the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, DOES say that the Holy Spirit knows EVERYTHING that God The Father knows:

  1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (LITV): But God revealed them to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of a man within him? So also no one has known the things of God except the Spirit of God.

  You could ask the Jehovah's Witnesses why 1 Corinthians 2:11 says that ONLY The Holy Spirit knows what God is thinking. Why did that Verse not say that Jesus knows what God is thinking?
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  jwfacts

  If that line of reasoning is to be used an equally applicable question is:

  Since (Matthew 28:19) says 19

  "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." . .Does that mean there is a Trinity?
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  Sacchiel

  Thanks everyone, especially UnDisfellowshipped. That was very insightful. I suppose this reasoning also applies to the who the Creator is. In some scriptures it specifically says the Son is the uncreated creator. I'm liking this site more :)
  
  jwfacts I probably misread your message. Something I've learned is to let scripture interpret scripture. God reveals himself in three persons. I don't know how blinded I was and felt sorry for all those 'Christians'.
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  jwfacts

  
  Hey Sacchiel, reading through your posts it is good to see that you now understand that the bible is far more than what you ever realised as a JW. As a JW pet scriptures are taken to support their presupposed concepts - Eisegesis

  Und/f's answer is spot on. I was simply trying to show that taking a single scripture can not prove anything. A scripture can be found to support any single stance that a person wants. A scripture can only be understood when considering what it meant to the person making the statement, what it conveyed to the person being spoken to, in line with what they already knew from other scriptures, the point being made at the time and the prevailing culture. - Exegesis
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  Flash

  1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (LITV):

  "...For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of a man within him?" Would anyone say that the spirit within us makes us 2 separate individuals??