Mary, the dubs teach that Jesus was an angel, not that he was a man as such.
All in all the JWs do not offer Bible studies but an indoctrination in their interpretations of the Bible which as we all know are often very erratic and at times totally absurd.
During that time the brains of the persons studying get scrambled and if they do go on to get baptised they become totally brain dead. The advice is, don't become brain dead.
Book study and not Bible study and trinity question
by Sacchiel 15 Replies latest watchtower bible
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greendawn
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Narkissos
About Mark 13:32, I think the big argument of JWs (and unitarians in general) is not about the Holy Spirit which is not mentioned (argument from silence, which may apply to many passages including John 1:1) but about the difference of knowledge between the Son and the Father. It is an argument against the equality of the Father and Son in the Nicene-Chalcedonian creed.
Dismissing it on the grounds of the "two natures" is shortsighted imo, because (1) the absolute use of "the Son" (unique case in Mark if I didn't miss anything) and (2) the order of the enumeration "the angels in heaven, the Son, the Father" hardly point to the earthly man. One might even question whether the Markan Jesus identifies himself with "the Son" (a question which applies to many occurrences of "the Son of Man" as well). If he does, that's a strange way of talking of himself.
I'd rather suggest that this saying reflects a subordinatianist theology (which can be traced back to Jewish apocalypticism and Philo and still lingers in 2nd century Christian theology, for instance in Justin Martyr) which considers "the Son" (identified to Jesus or not) as a second heavenly power besides and next to "God". An intermediate step toward the later "Trinity" but not quite like it yet.
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tmo1965
When Jesus was on earth he was in human form. Therefore, he had many of the limitations of humans. Jesus released himself of his deity while he was on earth. That's why Jesus, as a man, did not know the day or the hour of the 2nd Coming.
Phillipians 2:5-8
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Narkissos said:
About Mark 13:32, I think the big argument of JWs (and unitarians in general) is not about the Holy Spirit which is not mentioned (argument from silence, which may apply to many passages including John 1:1) but about the difference of knowledge between the Son and the Father. It is an argument against the equality of the Father and Son in the Nicene-Chalcedonian creed.
Dismissing it on the grounds of the "two natures" is shortsighted imo, because (1) the absolute use of "the Son" (unique case in Mark if I didn't miss anything) and (2) the order of the enumeration "the angels in heaven, the Son, the Father" hardly point to the earthly man.
First of all, the following Verses show that Jesus was speaking of Himself as "The Son of Man" in the Gospel of Mark:
Mark 8:29-33 (LITV): And He said to them, And you, whom do you say Me to be? And answering, Peter said to Him, You are the Christ. And He warned them that they may tell no one about Him. And He began to teach them that it is necessary for the Son of Man to suffer many things and to be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again. And He spoke the Word openly. And taking Him aside, Peter began to rebuke Him. But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, Go behind Me, Satan, because you do not mind the things of God, but the things of men.
The Watchtower Society claims (in the "Insight on the Scriptures" book, Volume One, under "Foreknowledge/Foreordaining"), that Jehovah, The Father, is selective in foreseeing the future, that He chooses what He wants to know about the future but He doesn't know anything else besides what He wants to know.
Now, I don't agree with that, because I believe the Scriptures show that God knows everything -- past, present, and future. But, it does show that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe God is selective in foreseeing the future, so why couldn't Jesus, as a Human on earth, also be selective just like His Father?
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus had Two Natures, that He was God and Man:
John 1:1 (LITV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Verse 14): And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.
Philippians 2:5-8 (LITV): For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus, who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
John 17:5 (LITV): And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.
Those Verses show that Jesus, who was and is God, became a Human, and "Humbled Himself" and "Emptied Himself" of certain rights and priveleges of being God, while on earth. He did NOT empty Himself of being God or of His Deity.
Also, John 16:30 and John 2:24-25 say that Jesus, while on earth, knew ALL things:
John 16:30 (LITV): Now we know that You know all things and have no need that anyone question You. By this we believe that You came out from God.
John 2:24-25 (LITV): But Jesus Himself did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all, and because He had no need that anyone should witness concerning man, for He knew what was in man.
But, the Bible also says that Jesus, as a Human, had to LEARN things like other humans do:
Luke 2:40 (LITV): And the Child grew, and became strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom. And the grace of God was upon Him.
Luke 2:52 (LITV): And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature and favor before God and men.
Hebrews 5:8 (LITV): though being a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered
Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man -- He was not half God and half Man, but He was 100% and 100%. I don't know how it happened, but that is the Miracle and Mystery of the Incarnation. The Bible also says that Jesus became just like us (except without sin) and experienced what we experience so that He can be our Sympathetic High Priest who pleads for us before The Father in Heaven: Hebrews 2:14 (LITV): Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might cause to cease the one having the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:17-18 (LITV): For this reason He ought by all means to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of His people. For in what He has suffered, being tried, He is able to help those being tried.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Sacchiel,
You said:
Thanks everyone, especially UnDisfellowshipped. That was very insightful.
You are very welcome and thank you so much for your kind words. I am just a humble servant of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the One who gives me my insight into the Scriptures.
You said:
I suppose this reasoning also applies to the who the Creator is. In some scriptures it specifically says the Son is the uncreated creator.
Yes, in fact, here are a couple of Scriptures, which, if you ask Jehovah's Witnesses how to harmonize them together, they will be stumped (unless they realize Jesus is God Almighty, the Creator):
Isaiah 44:24 (LITV):
So says Jehovah, your Redeemer and your Former from the womb; I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens, I alone spreading out the heavens. Who was with Me?Compare that Verse to this Verse about Christ:
Colossians 1:16 (LITV):
For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.Also, notice Hebrews 1:10 where The Father speaks to The Son and says that The Son is the Creator:
Hebrews 1:10 (LITV):
And, "You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands.I'm very happy that you are liking this website.
May God bless you!
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Narkissos
Udf'd,
First of all, the following Verses show that Jesus was speaking of Himself as "The Son of Man" in the Gospel of Mark:
From the overall perspective of the Gospel of Mark, that's right. As for the previous history of many individual "Son of Man" sayings it is another matter. After all, the idea of a "Son of Man coming on the clouds for judgement" derives from Daniel (and Enoch) and had a life of its own before anybody thought about identifying this "Son of Man" with Jesus. No such identification is required, or only partial identification (the SoM as a sort of "heavenly double" of Jesus, for instance), in the individual sayings in Matthew 10:23; 13:37ff; 16:27; 24:27ff; 25:31ff; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 13:26; 14:62 etc. They make perfect sense if Jesus is speaking of someone else, or another, hidden face of himself yet to be revealed (which is not the case of the "suffering SoM" which lacks pre-Christian background).
Otoh Mark 13:32 has "Son," absolute and unqualified, not "SoM"; while this can be short for "SoM" (cf. the similar triad "Father, SoM and angels" in 8:38) it is also reminiscent of the high Hellenistic Christology of John which is echoed in Matthew 11:27//, where the emphasis falls on the absolute knowledge of "the Son". Either way "the Son" reflects the highest, not the lowest "side" ("nature" in Chalcedonian terms) of Jesus. So "Jesus, as a human, didn't know the day and hour" is hardly a good explanation for the fact that "the Son" doesn't know.