Do the JWs believe that the great tribulation is happening now?

by whyizit 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • whyizit
    whyizit

    I just wondered about this, because in Rev. 7:9, it speaks of the great crowd and in verse 14 and says that these are the ones that came out of the great tribulation. Verse 15 further states that they are before the throne of God, serving Him day and night in His temple. Since they are "in" His temple, and God's temple is in heaven, and Rev. 19:1 further states that the great crowd is in heaven, I just wonder how the JWs conclude that this great crowd is going to be on earth, when the Bible specifically says they are in heaven? Do JWs believe that the great tribulation is happening right now?

    Also, I have never heard anything about the JWs beliefs about the rapture? Do they believe in the rapture?

    I am not a JW, but am curious about some of the teachings and how they come up with some of the beliefs that seem very strange to me. I cannot find Biblical evidence to support such doctrines, such as Jesus and Michael being one and the same. They have man-written books that go into great detail to try to prove such things, but no Scriptural evidence to support it. It would take a great stretch of the imagination for me to conclude such a thing from reading the Bible alone. Jesus is Jesus right up to the last sentence in the Bible. Never is He referred to as MIchael. Where did this teaching originate?

  • cyberdyne systems 101
    cyberdyne systems 101

    I look forward to reading the replies, as you say by reading the Bible alone without the thoughts of others you come to a different understanding as far as what the WTS teach.

    CS 101

  • Lo-ru-hamah
    Lo-ru-hamah

    w84 12/15 26-29

    ‘Michael

    the Great Prince’—Who Is He?

    THE spirit creature Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible, but when he is, the context is always dramatic. In Daniel we see him fighting wicked angels on behalf of God’s people. In Jude he is disputing with Satan over the body of Moses. And in the book of Revelation he casts Satan and his demons down to the earth. Evidently, Michael is a key figure in heaven. Hence, it is proper to wonder, Who is Michael?

    For many years Jehovah’s Witnesses have taught that Michael is a heavenly name for the only-begotten Son of God, who was named Jesus while on earth. However, most other religions view Michael as one of several archangels, as if there were more than one archangel. In view of this, Is the teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses correct? What does the Bible say about Michael?

    "The

    Prince of You People"

    We are introduced to the one named Michael in the book of Daniel. There an angel of God refers to him in these words: "But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me . . . And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these things but Michael, the prince of you people."—Daniel 10:13, 20, 21.

    Here we have a fascinating glimpse of the spirit realm. We see that spirit creatures—good and bad—are very much involved in world affairs. There was a spirit "prince of the royal realm of Persia," opposing the activities of God’s angel. After Persia there would be a "prince of Greece," promoting the interests of that world power. Among these spirit creatures, Michael was one of "the foremost princes." Which nation did he guide and protect? Clearly, it was Daniel’s people, the Jews.

    The name "Michael" means "Who Is Like God?" thus indicating that this foremost prince upholds Jehovah’s sovereignty. Since Michael is also a champion of God’s people, we have reason to identify him with the unnamed angel that God sent ahead of the Israelites hundreds of years before: "Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because my name is within him."—Exodus 23:20, 21.

    It is logical to conclude that this was the angel that delivered so many important communications to God’s people. (Acts 7:30, 35; Judges 2:1-3) He had full authority from God to act in His name, just as kings in ancient times entrusted their seal rings to reliable subjects, empowering them to act in their name.—Exodus 3:2, 3; 4:10.

    Is there anything here to make us believe that Michael and Jesus Christ are the same person? Well, Jesus is called "the Word." (John 1:1) He is God’s spokesman. This special angelic messenger, too, was clearly God’s chief spokesman to the Israelites.

    Michael

    ‘Stands Up’

    Michael was "the prince of you people." But he was to receive additional authority. We next see him in the final chapter of the book of Daniel. "And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time."—Daniel 12:1.

    Daniel, in chapter 11, had just described the march of world powers from his own time on into the future. He had accurately described the fall of Persia and the rise of Greece. Then came the partitioning of the Greek empire. Two of the resulting political entities—the king of the north and the king of the south—would vie for ascendancy and control over God’s people. At the climax of that rivalry, Michael would "stand up." What does this mean?

    Well, in other parts of this same prophecy, the term "stand up" means that the person assumes authority to rule as a king. (Daniel 11:3, 4, 7, 20, 21) Hence, when Michael ‘stands up’ he, too, starts to rule as a king. Consider the implications of this.

    Before Daniel died, the last Jewish king, Zedekiah, had been deposed. There would be no Jewish king for centuries to come. Daniel’s prophecy showed that one day in the future God’s people would once again have a king—Michael.

    Ezekiel, Daniel’s contemporary, foretold the coming of one "who has the legal right" to rule again as king of God’s people. (Ezekiel 21:25-27) This one is not to be identified with the Levite Maccabees who exercised some authority during a brief period of independence. Not being descendants of King David, they had no "legal right" to be kings. Rather, it was Jesus Christ who was anointed by God to rule as king in a heavenly kingdom. (Luke 1:31-33; 22:29, 30; Psalm 110:1) He was the only one thus anointed. It is therefore only logical to say that Jesus and Michael are the same person.

    In Daniel chapter 7, there is another prophecy about the march of world powers that has parallels with Daniel chapter 11. At the climax of that prophecy, however, we read that "someone like a son of man" was "given rulership and dignity and kingdom." (Daniel 7:13, 14) The one "like a son of man" is widely recognized as Jesus. (Matthew 10:23; 26:64; Revelation 14:14) Hence, in the climax of one prophecy, Jesus becomes a king. In the other prophecy in Daniel, Michael becomes a king. Since both prophecies deal with the same time and the same event, surely it is reasonable to conclude that they are also dealing with the same person.

    The

    Archangel

    We next read of Michael in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The book of Jude tells us: "But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’" (Jude 9) This incident helps to show the closeness of Michael to God’s ancient people. Therefore, it supports the argument that he was the angel that went ahead of the Israelites to protect them.

    We learn from Jude that Michael had the post of archangel. In fact, he was the archangel, since no other archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor does the Bible use "archangel" in the plural. "Archangel" means "Chief of the angels." (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) Among God’s spirit servants, only two names are associated with authority over angels: Michael and Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:27; 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) This, too, argues that Jesus and Michael are the same.

    Interestingly, the name of Jesus is linked with the word "archangel" in one of Paul’s letters. The apostle writes: "The Lord [Jesus] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) The context places this event during "the presence of the Lord," when Jesus has started to rule as king.—1 Thessalonians 4:15; Matthew 24:3; Revelation 11:15-18.

    It is Jehovah’s will and arrangement for Jesus to resurrect the dead. (John 6:38-40) It is God’s trumpet that sounds the call for the dead to come back to life, just as God instructed that trumpets be used for an assembly of his people in ancient times. (Numbers 10:1-10) Jesus issues "a commanding call" to the dead to come forth, just as he did on occasion while on earth. (John 11:43) But now he calls, not with a man’s voice as he did then, but with all the power of "an archangel’s voice" (en pho·ne´ arkh·ag·ge´lou). However, only an archangel can call with an archangel’s voice! And no one but Jesus has been given the authority to resurrect the dead. Hence, this rousing prophecy gives additional strong reason for identifying Jesus with the archangel, Michael.

    War in Heaven

    The final appearance of the name Michael in the Bible is in the book of Revelation. There we read: "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail." (Revelation 12:7, 8) Here we see Michael in action as God’s archangel. He, along with "his angels," defeats Satan and casts him down to the earth.

    This is the beginning of the "short period of time" before Satan’s wicked system is completely destroyed. After the end of Babylon the Great at the hands of the nations, the nations themselves are destroyed by Jesus and his angelic armies. (Revelation 12:12; 17:16, 17; 19:11-16) Finally, Satan is abyssed for a thousand years, after which he suffers complete annihilation in "the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:1, 2, 10) This—the long-promised final ‘crushing of Satan’s head’—is also accomplished by Jesus, along with his resurrected spiritual brothers.—Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Romans 16:20.

    Since Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan’s head, and since he accomplishes all these other judgment acts, it is only logical to conclude that he would lead heaven’s armies in the casting of Satan out of heaven. Hence, the conquering Michael referred to in Revelation 12 must be Jesus, who was told by Jehovah to "go subduing in the midst of [his] enemies."—Psalm 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35.

    The appearance of the name Michael, instead of Jesus, in Revelation chapter 12 draws our attention to the prophecy considered earlier in Daniel chapter 12. In Daniel we read of Michael’s standing up. (Daniel 12:1) In Revelation chapter 12, Michael acts like a conquering monarch throwing Satan down to the earth. The result: "Woe for the earth and for the sea."—Revelation 12:12.

    Jesus an Angel?

    Some object to identifying Jesus with the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. For Trinitarians, of course, such an identification poses a problem since it shows conclusively that he is not equal to Jehovah God. But even some who do not accept the Trinity doctrine feel that Jesus’ identity with an angel somehow detracts from his dignity.

    Remember, though, that the basic meaning of "angel" (Hebrew, mal·’akh´; Greek, ag´ge·los) is "messenger." As the "Word" (Greek, lo´gos), Jesus is God’s messenger par excellence. Remember, too, that as the archangel, as well as "the firstborn of all creation," Jesus had the highest rank among the angels even before he came to earth.—Colossians 1:15.

    True, the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews: "He [Jesus] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9, 10) However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and "the beginning of the creation by God." (Revelation 3:14) But he became better than the angels. The ‘more excellent name’ or position is something he did not possess before coming to earth. (These scriptures contradict the Trinitarian concept that the Son is and always has been equal in every way to the Father.)

    Hence, the fact that Michael is the archangel, chief of the angels, the fact that he stands up to rule as King, and the fact that he takes the lead in casting Satan out of heaven at the time of the birth of God’s Kingdom all lead us to just one conclusion: ‘Michael the great prince’ is none other than Jesus Christ himself.—Daniel 12:1.

    [Blurbs on page 28, 29]

    Michael is the archangel who became a king . . .

    . . . He also took the lead in ousting Satan from heaven

    The Rapture:

    *** w93 1/15 pp. 3-4 Will You Be Caught Away to Heaven? ***

    Will You Be Caught Away to Heaven?

    MANY people believe that they will go to heaven when they die. But some think that they will be caught away to heaven in what is called the rapture. Is that your expectation?

    The rapture is "the sudden disappearance of millions and millions of people without so much as a trace of where they went!" So said one Protestant evangelist. According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, the term "rapture" refers to "the church being united with Christ at his second coming."

    Some find it disturbing to think of leaving friends and family members behind to meet Jesus Christ. Yet, many believe that the rapture must occur. Will it take place? If so, when?

    Varied Views of the Rapture

    The Bible shows that before the start of Christ’s promised Thousand Year Reign, there will be a period called the "great tribulation." Said Jesus: "Then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." (Matthew 24:21; Revelation 20:6) Some place the rapture ahead of the great tribulation. Others expect it during that time. Still others think that the rapture will come after that unparalleled distress.

    The posttribulation view was predominant until the early 19th century. Then, in England there developed a movement headed by a former Church of Ireland clergyman, John Nelson Darby. He and like-minded Anglicans became known as the Brethren. From his Plymouth base, Darby traveled to preach in Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe. He asserted that Christ’s return would occur in two stages. It would begin with a secret rapture, in which the "saints" would be caught away before a seven-year period of tribulation devastated the earth. Then Christ would appear visibly, accompanied by these "saints," and together they would rule on earth for a thousand years.

    Darby stressed the need to be separate from the world, and those sharing his views eventually became known as the Exclusive Brethren. B. W. Newton headed a different faction that believed in the rapture but not in a pretribulation one. Posttribulation advocate Alexander Reese maintained that "the Secret-Rapture theories are a menace to the hope of Christ’s Coming."

    Pretribulationists believe that this difference in viewpoint is serious enough to affect "the nature of [their] hope in relation to the coming of Christ." Others place confidence in a "partial rapture theory," believing that those who are most loyal to Christ will be raptured first and the more worldly will be taken later.

    Many evangelical groups herald an imminent rapture of faithful Christians. In view of differing opinions, however, a booklet published by Britain’s Elim Pentecostal Church says: "Whilst we subscribe to a broad outline of events related to the return of the Lord Jesus . . . , freedom is allowed in the interpreting of prophecy according to the conviction of the individual. Many accept a non-dogmatic position, patiently waiting for the events themselves to unfold the prophetic programme."

    God’s inspired Word, the Bible, is the standard by which we need to measure the truthfulness of all beliefs. (2 Timothy 1:13; 3:16, 17) Therefore, what does it say about the rapture?

  • Lo-ru-hamah
    Lo-ru-hamah

    I just did a quick search on the watchtower CD and came up with the previous post. Actually, I have heard that the Michael/Jesus teaching is something that a lot of non JW's take exception to. Honestly, I myself have never researched the topic and like everything else just took their word for it. Of course now I will need to look into it further, just haven't had the time yet. I am sure others, like Blondie, will have quite a bit more information than what I have posted, she is a real student.

    Loruhamah

  • sir82
    sir82

    JWs do not believe the "great tribulation" is happening now. They believe it is a future event, to be started by the combined efforts of "worldly" governments somehow "destroying" all religions in the world (except of course for JWs).

    There was a time, from the 20's thru sometime the late 60's (others with access to the WT-CD can probably point you to specific references) wherein the JWs believed that the "great tribulation" had actually started in 1914, but was "interrupted" by God, and was going to resume shortly.

  • under_believer
    under_believer

    Do the JWs believe that the great tribulation is happening now?

    No. In their eschatology, It happens in the future, after The Wild Beast of Revelation "turns on false religion" and then on Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I just wondered about this, because in Rev. 7:9, it speaks of the great crowd and in verse 14 and says that these are the ones that came out of the great tribulation. Verse 15 further states that they are before the throne of God, serving Him day and night in His temple. Since they are "in" His temple, and God's temple is in heaven, and Rev. 19:1 further states that the great crowd is in heaven, I just wonder how the JWs conclude that this great crowd is going to be on earth, when the Bible specifically says they are in heaven?

    They "stand before the throne" in a symbolic, or "spiritual" sense. This is something you will see in JW teachings again and again. If they don't like what something says, they spiritualize it. If they make a prediction and it fails, they say it actually really did happen, only it happend "spiritually."

    Also, I have never heard anything about the JWs beliefs about the rapture? Do they believe in the rapture?

    No. Their interpretation of 1 Thess 4:17 is that it only applies to a special class of 144,000 anointed ones (the 144,000 of Revelation is a literal number, they think) and not to everyone. Also, they simply believe it is referring to what happens to them when they die, not as a bulk event.

    I am not a JW, but am curious about some of the teachings and how they come up with some of the beliefs that seem very strange to me. I cannot find Biblical evidence to support such doctrines, such as Jesus and Michael being one and the same. They have man-written books that go into great detail to try to prove such things, but no Scriptural evidence to support it. It would take a great stretch of the imagination for me to conclude such a thing from reading the Bible alone. Jesus is Jesus right up to the last sentence in the Bible. Never is He referred to as MIchael. Where did this teaching originate?

    Their "proof" for the Michael = Jesus argument goes like this:

    • 1 Thess 4:16 talks about the Lord coming with an archangel's voice
    • Daniel 12:1 talks about Michael "standing up" in the "time of the end." "Standing up" must mean taking royal power or acting with a king's authority. And since Jesus is going to wage Har-Magedon, Jesus must be Michael.
    • Rev 12 says Michael and his angels will battle the dragon and his angels. Later Rev 19 says Jesus will lead the heavenly hosts against the earthly nations. The angels must have only one commander, so Michael must be Jesus.
    It's a big stretch. You can't make this stuff up.
  • blondie
    blondie

    The WTS teaches that the great tribulation begins with the destruction of all religions except the WTS (Babylon the Great) by elements within the United Nations. I don't believe that the WTS believes that has started yet.

    ***

    w05 9/15 p. 19 par. 14 Walk by Faith, Not by Sight! ***
    The desolation of false religion will mark the beginning of the great tribulation.

    ***

    w00 10/15 p. 16 What God’s Kingdom Will Do ***
    At the beginning of the great tribulation, something will happen that will be a severe shock to most people on earth: the destruction of all false religion.

    ***

    w94 2/15 p. 20 par. 18 "Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?" ***
    The account in Revelation shows that the future great tribulation will begin when the militarized "horns" of the international "wild beast" turn on "the great harlot," Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:1, 10-16)

    The WTS has taught that this would not be gradual but when Babylon the Great was still a strong force in the world, as swift as a vase being knocked off a pedestal.

    ***

    w74 1/15 p. 54 pars. 23-24 ‘Keep Close in Mind the Presence of the Day of Jehovah’ ***
    But what does Jeremiah 25:34, 35 say about this? Concerning what will happen to Christendom’s leaders just as concerning what was to befall the Jewish leaders shortly after Jerusalem’s fall in 607 B.C.E., it says: "Howl, you shepherds, and cry out! And wallow about, you majestic ones of the flock, because your days for slaughtering and for your scatterings have been fulfilled, and you must fall like a desirable vessel!"
    So it is not a slow fading away by loss of members that brings the end of Christendom’s false religions and their clergy. Instead, just as a beautiful vase, a "desirable vessel," suddenly falls from its pedestal, to the dismay of its onlookers, so the clergy and their false religion have a sudden, surprising crash to destruction.

    Of course, individual JWs have their personal speculations.

    Blondie

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    I removed my research on Michael to start this topic in a new thread.

  • RachelHall
    RachelHall

    The WTS must be the Beast.....they have been turning on and taking out people from other religions of all kinds for more than 100 years.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Witnesses taught me that the end of the world, the great tribulation, and Armageddon were three separate events. They taught that the world ended in 1914 and the great tribulation followed with a "great tribulation pause". The "other sheep" and the "great crowd" were the same group, also known as "people of good will".

    Now the "great crowd" group are "other sheep applicants" for future recognition. The World didn't end in 1914, we are NOT living in the "great tribulation", and Armageddon is a future event when Jesus will murder the babies of people who are not Jehovah's Witnesses.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit