True Christians neutral in War?

Van Gogh

Today I re-established contact with an older – true - friend who is still a JW. In the fifty years that he has been baptized he invested a lot of time and effort in helping the needy and elderly, loyally taking up responsibilities in the org as an elder, organizer, speaker and shepherd. He is still out there as a lowly publisher, tirelessly going from door to door with only his Bible. A couple of years ago he was ousted as an elder for being too critical of the org. during a CO visit.
I had been afraid our friendship was in danger when I told him I had left a couple of months ago.
His position is somewhat ambiguous and hard to pin down. Convinced that it is the truth, but otherwise keeping an open mind as to the outcome of it all. To cut it short, he is loyal to God who he thinks works through his JW people. He is old school sincere. Though an independent thinker and well read, he does not know a lot about the theological arguments and facts available on for instance JWD. He does not seek out those kinds of facts or truths. But his faith is sincere, unshakable and from the gut. He has a great love for the international brotherhood and people in general. I find his faith in the good of people and a loving God inspiring.
His main - gut - argument is from Isaiah 2:4:
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
He argues that the global brotherhood of JWs (not the organization as such) are the only ones that actually practice this simple, though effective trait of true Christianity in everyday life. To me as well this used to be the identifying mark of truth – despite the many cover-ups, falsehoods, fallacies, wrongs and injustices of the organization and its apologist henchmen.
I still find it a compelling argument.
What do you think?
VG

Honesty

If you read Fox's Book of Martyrs you may change your mind about neutrality by Christians.

Also, look at the wars being fought today. Christian nations against Muslim dictators and groups who were murdering their own countrymen.

WWI and WWII was not Christian brother against Christian brother as the WT would have people believe.

lovelylil

That Isaiah scripture is a prophecy for the future and has not been fulfilled yet. You can see that if you read it in its entire context. It also does not only apply to the Jehovah's Witness faith. As it says I (God) a will judge matters "respecting many peoples" and the laws will not go out through an organization but thru Gods city Jerusalem. They apply to themselves but are totally misled as to the full meaning. God's purpose is for all the nations in the world to learn not to war and disarm themselves and this will happen by his miraculous intervention.

Isaiah 2

2 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

3 Many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

If your friend is saying this applies to the JWs as of now, what about Nation will not lift up sword against Nation any more - is that happening? Of course not. And how is Jehovah settling the disputes of many nations? This denotes not just people from those nations but the governments themselves. As you see, it does not apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses in any way. Your friend is merely interpreting this the way the WT society does, and they are wrong.

Another thing: the JWs although they think they are the only ones who do not go to war - are sadly mistaken. There are Christians in many faiths who do not go to war and other groups as a whole like the Amish, and the Quakers.

metatron

Neutrality is nonsense. In modern war, everyone contributes to the war effort, like it or not. Farmers and mechanics were

desperately needed to keep the Third Reich going. Himmler planned to use Jehovah's Witnesses to "pacify" remote areas

of captured Soviet territory, so that they wouldn't fight the Nazis in years to come. So, this "neutrality" can be of great benefit

to a dictator, if they use it right.

metatron

Star Moore

Hello,

I think that scripture in Is..and Micah..referring to the final part of days..is actually talking about the Great Trib..during Jesus' presence. Not before..

Van Gogh

Honesty:
Hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the trenches. If they had refused the orders of their irresponsible generals, they might have been executed anyway, but without adding to the bloodshed. It is a matter of individual Christian responsibility. Whether Christians kill other Christians or Muslims does not matter.
Lovelylil:
Anyone that would conscientiously take his/her individual responsibility to refuse war could have a favorable position with Christ (including Muslims), including the many individual JWs. What is your position on those that profess to be Christian AND kill in a war?
Metatron:
“Neutrality is nonsense”. Isn’t that a nihilistic point of view? This will ultimately excuse anyone. Everybody draws the line somewhere.
Star Moore:
Whatever you say. Who knows. But it is about taking ones individual responsibility in acting in the spirit of Christianity, for instance: “all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword”. Why not take the lead. According to Christianity Christ is a reality right now, and is in that view practised by partaking in him right now; the fruit of the spirit to be cultivated right now – not wait till the great trib.

Hellrider

Van Gogh, I see what you are saying, and to a certain extent, I agree. But on the other hand, is all war unjust? I think that in the case of almost all wars, they were unjust, but what about world war 2? If Hitler had not been stopped, he would have continued killing millions of people, mainly jews and east-Europeans. Let`s say for a second, that all of (christian) western Europe and the U.S had remained neutral, Germany would (probably?) have defeated the USSR. And then he had ethnically cleansed huge territories of eastern-Europeans, and "relocated" them to the massgraves. Millions of people. Wouldn`t the christian thing to do, have been to attacked Germany? I think it would. I don`t think the Bible teaches complete neutrality in all situations. And as someone stated, the passage in Isiaiah refers to a future state, the "ressurected" Jerusalem. And the passage "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword”, isn`t really a command, it is a statement of a fact.

Kenneson

Van Gogh,

And what is your position on those who profess to be Christian and say that Jehovah kills in war? Actually, isn't Armageddon supposed to make all wars as we know them a Sunday School picnic? If God can't love his enemies and turn the other cheek, why does he expect us to?

Van Gogh

Hellrider:
I know, refusing to serve can be idealistic; but then you’ve got to start somewhere…
Ultimately you have to stand up for your own beliefs or conscience or risk getting caught up in a war that is at that time being perceived, or being sold by politicians, as just, yet with hindsight turns out to have been unjustified. Many veterans look back with regret on the atrocities they inadvertently got caught up in while fighting so called atheist, godless commies.
There is a lot of controversy on whether fire-storming hundreds of thousands of Germans in one night in strategically unimportant German cities was the most effective way to go about it. Yet, the Nazi death camps and the few simple railroads leading up to them were left untouched until the very end. The most important ally in the war against Germany did the dirty work left unfinished by the Nazis when it (the USSR) ethnically cleansed huge territories of eastern-Europeans, and "relocated" many of them to the mass graves. Why wasn’t a just war initiated against it? What is a just war? Where does one draw the line? We applaud the conscientious objectors in the Third Reich for not getting caught up in an unjust war. But do you always know in advance where you will get caught up in?
George W is a born-again Christian who started a “just” war. But just consider the position taken ultimately by an unbelieving participant for purely personal and conscientious motives: Pat Tillman? Where does this leave a Christian?
VG

bob1999

I think a Christian has the right and responsibility to defend his self and his family. So what is war?
It could be argued that it is self-defense.

True Christians neutral in War?

Isaiah 2

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