Advice for non-JW please

by Joe Grundy 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Having visited this site on many occasions, and having been recommended to it, I am confident that it is a source of good advice from people who know about these things. I would be grateful for any advice you can offer me.

    I have been an atheist for 20+ years, but before that was a non-conformist protestant with degrees of belief varying from acceptance to enthusiasm. My atheism resulted from research because of my (continuing) interest in the effects of religion. I had done research into cults (including JWs) many years ago, and my recent renewed research with the benefit of the Interenet has only confirmed my cynicsm. I am a middle-aged man, naturally sceptic, and it's worth pointing out here that there is no danger of me being drawn into the JWs.

    My issue is this. Last year I moved to a completely new area. My new neighbours are a young family with two small children (one has just started school, one is pre-school). The parents are very strong JWs, the wife being from a JW background, the husband a convert to it. Both are very active on door-to-door work (taking the children with them), the husband seems to perform minor assistant works at their meetings, etc. The older child is already proudly quoting Bible verses (one from Psalms, I think, about the name 'Jehovah') and telling me that her dad is a 'pioneer'.

    I enjoy discussing religious issues (with anybody) especially my views on what I see as the 'invention of Pauline Christianity', and have done so with them several times. On a couple of occasions I went with them to their Sunday morning services out of interest (having read much about them but never seen them in action). I was taken aback by the formulaic nature, the complete adherence to the magazine outline, and the lack of any discussion, etc. To be honest, there were several people attending who obviously were not very familiar with English and yet struggled to get out a few-word answer to questions and seemed very proud to have done so. To be honest, I found it hard at times to keep a straight face. Afterwards, I was introduced to a few men (elders I would guess) and invited to dinner etc. at some future time (which I managed to avoid with vague 'busy plans' etc.

    I also went recently with this couple to their passover/memorial service. My motivation was mainly interest but there was also, I must confess, a little bit of devilment in wanting to ask people questions about the 'anointed' etc. I also reckoned (rightly or not, I don't know) that the couple might get some 'brownie points' by taking a 'potential recruit' with them. I did ask a few innocent questions of some of the (I suspect) outside afterwards - like why there were no 'anointed' in their service and whether JWs had an overall list of all the anointed, etc. - but got little response, and they seemed a bit less interested in me than previously. I was wearing jeans and smoking a cigarette at the time.

    My problem is this. Whilst I am aware of 'love-bombing' etc. I think that this couple are genuinely nice people and really good neighbours. For example, a few months ago I was laid quite low with a cold/flu and couldn't be bothered to even go out to the shops (I live alone). They called round a couple of times to check I was OK, brought hot meals, even offered to do my washing for me! I would hate to cause offence to them, and have explained politely that I cannot accept their religion even on the grounds of looking at its own literature, history, organisation, etc., and that I am an atheist with views on various basic tenets of all religions, let alone the Christian and Christain-derived ones. I have also suggested to them that if they continue to socialise with me they may have issues with their congregation who would, I am sure, see me as a 'bad association'. They seem to be quite happy to remain friends, inviting me for meals, etc.

    The other concern I have is for their children. Having read so many heart-rending stories on here and elsewhere of some with JW childhoods my heart breaks a little for the children, especially the elder. I know that already she has had problems in school (schools in this area are very mainstream religion influenced), with Christmas, Mother's Day, etc. (her Mum told me this at great length and seemed to be proud of what the child was suffering for the sake of her religion). The children noticeably do not have friends to play with.

    Having got this far, I'm not quite sure what specific advice I'm asking for. I suppose its this. If I continue friendship with this couple, could it lead to trouble for them within JWs? They like to raise religious questions, and while I tone down my responses I cannot either pretend to accept what they say or fail to respond to what I see as factual discrepancies. On one occasion I went for dinner at their house, they had another couple present who are very active JWs, ex-Bethel (luckily I had shortly before found out what that was) so I made sure I steered clear of anything contentious.

    Part of me says that I should politely steer clear of them and that their friendship is a means to an end (i.e. converting the unbeliever). I have no misapprehensions that anything I could say to them or show them would cause them to doubt their faith - it may only cause them turmoil. But the other part says that these are nice people.

    Is this sort of story familiar to anyone? Sorry for the length of this posting. All comments gratefully received.

  • jstalin
    jstalin

    I have a friend who's a JW and I have some of the same concerns as you. My advice is to simply be you and avoid getting confrontational. I don't discuss religion unless my friend brings it up, and we have cordial conversations. You're not going to convert them, but you could be an example for them, showing that not all non-JWs are evil.

  • Emma
    Emma

    Since you've never been a witness, they won't get in trouble. Bless you for your concern about the children. I don't know if you can ever be an influence to any of them, but your alternative viewpoint and friendship may cause one of them to think somewhere down the line. There's really not much else to do.

    If they eventually give up on hopes of converting you, they may cool toward you.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    hi,

    welcome to the forum!

    I don;t want to judge anyone but it seems like their intentions are to get you to study and they may be trying to see if they could teach you the "truth", that is what they have been indoctrinated to do. They may really have good intentions by visiting you with true concern or they may be hoping it would lead to helping you convert to JWs. It is hard to tell what someones true intention is that it why I dont want to judge these people.

    I will tell you as an ex JW what I tell my nieighbors. If you show any interest in them in any way, (biblical interest) they will keep coming back to talk more about the bible, etc. Usually, the JWs are hoping by showing kindness to others that they can convert you. They are required to report all this time to the elders along with other personal information about you. Such as your address, name, how much interest you are showing. If you will never have an interest in the religion it is better if you are honest up front and tell them you rather speak about other things. And if you dont want personal information about yourself given out, let them know.

    Since they are your nieghbors though, you want to let them know that you hope this will in no way affect their friendship as nieghbors. Tell them that you enjoy having them as nieghbors and why. And just explain that as far as the religion aspect, you don't want to lead them on and give them false hope that you agree with them.

    As far as a close friendship with you, they will probably never have one. Their close friends are always only Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Let me say in closing, you seem like such a wonderful, respectful person who has only good intentions towards your nieghbors and I can only wish to have a nieghbor like you. We need more people like you in the world.

    I hope in some small way this helps you. Peace be with you, Lilly

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hi Joe,

    Having got this far, I'm not quite sure what specific advice I'm asking for. I suppose its this. If I continue friendship with this couple, could it lead to trouble for them within JWs? They like to raise religious questions, and while I tone down my responses I cannot either pretend to accept what they say or fail to respond to what I see as factual discrepancies. ...

    Part of me says that I should politely steer clear of them and that their friendship is a means to an end (i.e. converting the unbeliever). I have no misapprehensions that anything I could say to them or show them would cause them to doubt their faith - it may only cause them turmoil. But the other part says that these are nice people.

    Be yourself, be true to yourself, and accept their friendship as it is. If they reach a point where they feel that you or your views threaten their faith, they will end associating with you. There is always the possibility that they are thinking and reconsidering their religion. You may be unknowningly helping them to have some space to think for themselves.

    Is this sort of story familiar to anyone? Sorry for the length of this posting. All comments gratefully received.

    Sometimes, but not normally. It is not common for active loyal JWs to build friendships beyond inviting the non-JW person to meetings and to study. Their kindness to you is because of who they are, and they are trying to be Christian, not because of the Watchtower organization, but in spite of it.

    Jim Whitney

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    I'm surprised that they have remained 'in your company' for this long. Generally speaking, most and especially the zealous ones, will avoid any social interaction with 'wordly' people because you are 'bad association'. If after a certain length of time you appear definitely non interested in joining the organization then they should be dropping you and finding another possible recruit. By attending some meetings and showing some interest, they may honestly believe that you will join up with the Society. As for their kids - well, everyone has a different outlook. I don't believe that raising kids in an atmosphere of fear and guilt to the degree of eliminating critical thinking, independence, curiousity, motivation and hope for a future are good things. sw.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Joe,

    Welcome.

    If I continue friendship with this couple, could it lead to trouble for them within JWs?

    This depends entirely on the Body of Elders they are dealing with. I have been in congregations where elders were pretty intrusive into the relationships of the congregation, and others where the elders felt that interaction with "worldly" people like you was an opportunity to "let light shine into darkness." The "darkness" being your vile, atheistic heart, of course.

    Part of me says that I should politely steer clear of them and that their friendship is a means to an end (i.e. converting the unbeliever). I have no misapprehensions that anything I could say to them or show them would cause them to doubt their faith - it may only cause them turmoil. But the other part says that these are nice people.

    I understand your consideration, and it is heart-warming that you have enough regard for them to be willing to set aside the friendship for their benefit. Given the circumstances you have described, they likely see you as a "very good person" and they probably have said many times to each other, "Honey, he is SOOO nice and pleasant to spend time with. He should be a Witness. It's like he already IS one."

    Let me explain a bit: Jehovah's Witnesses have an idyllic view of themselves as an organization even though they don't personally know a single Witness that fits that ideal. They often meet "worldly" people who are highly ethical and have a high degree of integrity. These people (e.g., you) match the JW ideal more closely than any JW the observer (in this case, your neighbors) personally knows of. The JW assumes these people should be Witnesses.

    Because they unwittingly hold you in higher esteem than their fellow congregants, more than any other person in this couple's life, you have the ability to raise their awareness of what they are doing to themselves and their children. VERY slowly, or you risk damaging them and your friendship. If you even want to do that. Odds are, in view of your integrity, you have already affected the way they think and feel about some things. In case you have wondered, it is not customary (at all) for JWs to take such an avid interest in their next door neighbors. These people are already odd among JWs just for that fact.

    What they don't realize is, there is something in you which they appreciate about themselves (apparently) and they sense it is lacking in the congregation. Due to programming, they think you should become a part of their congregation—never considering the possibility that you are as you are because you aren't a JW, never seeing that they themselves are outside the JW norm.

    If you do not wish to influence them in ways that will eventually get them in trouble with the congregation, I suggest you dissolve the friendship tactfully.

    If you have enough affection for them, then maybe you can recognize that the best thing that could happen to them is for them to discover how unlike JWs they already are. If you want tips on how to help them (from an insiders perspective) you can get loads of great advice here. You will know what applies and what doesn't in this specific case.

    Well met!

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • cyberdyne systems 101
    cyberdyne systems 101

    Welcome to the forum.

    Contrary to the often given rule of being no part of the world and avoiding friendships with those in it, many JW's will be more than friendly to a neighbour. I doubt this would cause them any problems in the congregation as witnesses are supposed to be good neighbours themselves. I think it can only be a good thing to have open discussions with you.

    CS 101

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Thanks very much to all for the welcome, advice, and the kind comments, which have made me blush.

    One of the concerns I had was that I had read that zealous JWs/WTBTS regularly monitored sites such as this. It's for this reason I have had to avoid giving too much detail, to avoid identification of the family concerned.

    Thanks again.

  • Dr Jekyll
    Dr Jekyll
    You're not going to convert them, but you could be an example for them, showing that not all non-JWs are evil.

    Wait a sec isn't this your jw mate that you wanna jump?

    lol

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