607

Scholar, You wrote: A Christian's post has already been answered by me several times in the course of my posting history ... It comes down to methodology and the fact that secular chronology does not account for the seventy years ... What a bunch of double talk! This is so typical of you, claiming that you have answered a tough question in the past when you have never done any such thing. I asked you why JWs prefer to establish the date for Jerusalem's destruction by starting your count of time with "the 7th year of Cambyses," as astronomically dated by Strm Kambys 400, rather than doing so by starting your count of time with "the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar," as astronomically dated by VAT 4956.
I pointed out that the latter method ( VAT 4956 = 587/6 BC ) requires the employment of no possibly mistaken assumptions as does the former ( Strm Kambys 400 = 607 BC ). That being the case, the only valid reason for dating Jerusalem's destruction beginning your count of time with "the 7th year of Cambyses," as astronomically dated by Strm Kambys 400, would be if historians believe that Strm Kambys 400 is a much more reliable historical document than VAT 4956. But d o they? Again, I ask you to tell me why you accept Strm Kambys 400 which leads you to your 607 date only in a very round about way and not VAT 4956 which leads us directly to the 587/6 date. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/107943/1892811/post.ashx#1892811 You talk about having to "account for the seventy years." But as I have pointed out, the Bible's "seventy years" prophecies have nothing to do with this subject. For either way you can, if you wish, understand the Bible's "70 years" prophecies to refer to years of total desolation for Judah. In other words, you could accept the 587/6 BC date for Jerusalem's destruction, clearly established by VAT 4956, and then maintain that the Jews returned home 70 years later, in about 517. Instead of maintaining that Vat 4956 must be in error in regards to its apparent dating of Jerusalem's destruction in 587/6 BC, as you now must do, why do you not maintain that Strm Kambys 400 must be in error about its apparent dating of Cyrus' conquest of Babylon in 539 BC? One more time I will ask you a simple question and hope you will give me a straight answer. Why do you accept the astronomical dating found in Strm Kambys 400 and reject the astronomical dating contained in VAT 4956?
Mike

Scholar,

I don't believe you can answer my question. So I doubt you will attempt to do so. This line of inquiry sent you packing the last time we discussed "607" with you on this board.

If you cannot or will not give me a straight answer to this question I must conclude one of the following:

1. You are so "mentally challenged" that you cannot understand this simple question. I doubt that is the case.

2. You are so completely brainwashed that you refuse to allow yourself to seriously consider any question that might shake your faith in the organization. I believe this is a possibility, but an unlikely one.

3. You are absolutely insane, in much the same way that a fellow who used to post here under a lot of different names (Gary, Larry, Bibleman, JCannon, etc.) claiming to be Jesus Christ was insane. Many here would often try to reason with him to no avail. He was very happy living in his fantasy world and, because he was, he would allow no reality to disturb that happiness. I believe this is a strong possibility in your case.

4.You are evil. Possibly even under demonic influence. As such, you are deliberately doing all you can to promote what you know are false teachings and a corrupt religious organization in order to harm any who may believe what you know to be Watchtower lies. I think this is a possibility.

5. You are an "apostate" who is only pretending to be a JW. As such you are doing your best, as well as any real JW could possibly do, to present and defend JW arguments for the date 607. You are doing so in order to show everyone who reads these boards how totally lacking in merit the Watchtower's position and arguments are on this subject matter. Again, I believe this is a possibility, but an unlikely one.

6. You engage in these discussions as a form of self amusement. You know you are wrong. But you enjoy being the center of attention and playing this game. I think this is most likely what is going on here.

I found this site interesting. You all may have seen it before and if so, sorry. This dedicated JW sent two letters to the Society (you will see them at the bottom of the page) and got hardly any response. It is pitiful.

http://www.607v587.com/

MuadDib

"I t comes down to methodology and the fact that secular chronology does not account for the seventy years therefore rendering its data useless for such purposes."

What you mean to say, no doubt, is that it comes down to the fact that your methodology hinges entirely on your personal belief system rather than on a sober investigation of what the historical evidence actually reveals. Your idiotic raving about "demonic secular chronology" confirms it: you are no scholar at all, in any sense of the word, but simply another fundamentalist trying (and failing miserably) to give some legitimate facade to his own prejudices. Fortunately, those of us who are scholars, and who cultivate a rational, analytical, and HONEST assessment of reality, can easily see through your ignorant lunacy.

"Scholar" indeed. You don't merit the name you've given yourself. As a real scholar, I demand you change it immediately to something more fitting. "Bullshitter" is probably still up for grabs.

AChristian: I was awaiting your reply to this, well said as well! I suspect scholar will disappear again.

A Christian

The issues that you have raised concerning the validity of Neo-Babylonian chronology have been addressed by me on several occasions. The facts are that celebrated WT scholars are aware of the data pertaining to Neo Babylonian chronology and in fact astronomical evidence is used to calculate the pivotal date for the Fall of Babylon. However, when it comes to the construction of a biblical chronology there is a conflict or difference of twenty years between the biblical and secular data. Our scholars have folllowed the clear and emphatic statements of scripture which account for a fixed period of seventy years which cannot be reconciled with Neo-Babylonian chronology;

Apostates such as Carl Jonsson in his hypothesis have tried to harmonize the data but such interpretations are not accepted by scholars who regard the seventy years as a round number or place the period outside the scope of accepted Neo- Babylonian chronology.

The seventy years as a fixed historical period of servitude-exile and desolation accords with all of the available evidence and determines the fact that the Fall of Jerusalem was 607 and not 586-587 as calculated by the Neo-Babylonian chronology.

What you need to do is clearly and firmly establish the correct understanding of the seventy years otherwise your chronology fails.

scholar JW

To All,

About scholar:

I've just come to the realisation that scholar is just here to try and wind us up on this issue of 607BC, I somehow don't believe he is a JW. His style of writing is antagonistic rather than just keeping to the facts. Someone that believes the truth about something that will culminate in eternal life and happiness would never engage in polemics.

Does anybody agree?

spectrum,

Based on the opinion of a close personal friend after discussions with scholar by PM, I believe scholar is a JW and a peculiar sort of troll. I think he believes what he writes but also loves to get a rise out of people with statements such as "celebrated WT scholars."

I just wish he would address the Isaiah's Prophecy book, Volume I, page 253. It is the SAME 70 years under discussion. The WT scholars wrote that the 70 years of Jeremiah 25 applied to Babylon's period of greatest dominion. Babylon's dominion (according to that publication) ended in 539 BC, so none of the rest of his lackluster arguments matter. 539 BC minus 70 equals 609 BC—the year the Assyrian empire was finally broken (according to secular chronology). I choose this date as the start of Babylon's greatest dominion because had Egyptian forces actually made it to Haran in time, the Babylonian empire might never have existed.

My mother promised to look into that. She didn't. My father refused to discuss that paragraph with me. Scholar won't address it. When will a JW admit that this paragraph from the Isaiah book turns the entire basis for their 1914 chronology on its ear and strips away every defense for the 607 BC doctrine?

scholar,

I have read what you call your response to a christian's post. Referring to a twenty year difference between "biblical" chronology and secular chronology ignores 2 particularly salient facts: (1) the list of kings and the regnal years for those kings are published by the WT society and a backwards count from 539 BC arrives at 586/87 BC for the fall of Jerusalem and (2) the Bible does not provide a chronological time for the destruction of Jerusalem, it only tells what would occur at the end of the 70 years—hint, it wasn't the release of the Jews from captivity.

The event the Bible says will occur WHEN the 70 years have been fulfilled could not have possibly occurred in 537 BC. The release of the Jews from captivity was not the prophesied fulfillment of Jeremiah 25:12, Daniel 5:26 was the prophesied fulfillment of Jeremiah 25:12. Check the marginal references in your NWT on Daniel 5:26.

What you need to do is clearly and firmly establish the correct understanding of the seventy years otherwise your chronology fails.

I couldn't agree more. You have failed spectacularly in this regard.

AuldSoul

Auld Soul

The comment in the Isaiah book is nothing new as it is simply an observation that the seventy years of Jeremiah was of servitude under the rule of Babylon and that is what celebrated WT scholars have always maintained that the period was of servitude, exile and desolation. The seventy years of Tyre were similar to that of Jeremiah and that identity was of servitude. The prophecy of Isaiah merely supports Jeremiah and the other writers who all defined the seventy years as servitude, exile and desolation. The period ran from the fall in 607 until the return in 537 which harmonizes biblical history.

scholar JW