The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 86 Replies latest jw friends

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Jim,

    I forgot to address the statement you made about me lifting the verse out of context. I did not. I simply highlighted that it was the Prophet Agabus who spoke. Not the Holy Spirit himself. It was Agabus who grabbed at Paul's belt and then he declared "this is what the Holy Spirit says" then went on to say "I have set him apart.....etc.". I did get this point.

    But since it is Agabus who is actually speaking this proves my point that the Holy Spirit is not a person who can speak for himself. If he was, why was it Agabus who was making the proclomation about Paul and Barnabas? Why does it not say the Holy Spirit grabed at the belt of Paul and said............ Do you see what I mean? It was Agabus talking while filled with Holy Spirit.

    When people say the Holy Spirit told me or the Spirit moved me, or the Spirit directed me, what they are saying is that God's spirit is at work in them. All the Son's (and daughters) of God have this experience. They understand this is a manifestation of God's power that is influencing them.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Like the Trinity broshure, the Watchtower article reproduced above only tells half the story. Yes, you do not find the Trinity doctrine spelled out or even presumed in NT and early patristic sources. As the sources presented by Amazing1914 and I show (particularly Athenagorus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria), it is not until the second half of the second century where you find statements expressing explicit trinitarian (or even full-blown binitarian) ideas. But what the Society downplays are christological and theological statements in early texts that do represent component notions of trinitarian theology, such as the Deity of Christ, the unity or equality of the Father and Son, the triadic description of the functions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, etc. In short, we may not find the synthesis of the trinity in such early sources, but we do find many statements and views that cannot be made to agree with Watchtower theology.

    To quote what they say on Ignatius:

    Even if Ignatius had said that the Son was equal to the Father in eternity, power, position, and wisdom, it would still not be a Trinity, for nowhere did he say that the holy spirit was equal to God in those ways.

    No, but that would still be significant and worthy of note because the Society does NOT claim that "the Son is equal to the Father in eternity, power, position, and wisdom", etc. By reducing the issue down to just "Does Ignatius mention the Trinity: Yes or No?", the Society can side step the things that Ignatius does say that conflicts with Watchtower theology.

    But Ignatius did not say that the Son was equal to God the Father in such ways or in any other. Instead, he showed that the Son is in subjection to the One who is superior, Almighty God.

    Even the Trinity doctrine in most its forms contends that Jesus can be "in subjection" to the Father in function and position, not in being or nature (as subordinationists hold), particularly in his earthly incarnation. The Society very rarely mentions this distinction. An earlier writer, Tertullian, subscribed to an economical trinity, so the Son and the Holy Spirit were subject to the Father and both derived from the Father, but this does not mean that he was not a trinitarian because he also claimed that these three persons together comprise God (rather, he did not subscribe to the later Nicene trinity). So stating that the Son is subject to the Father does not preclude trinitarianism as a whole. As for Ignatius, he described Jesus as subject to the Father in his incarnation ("Jesus Christ in the flesh was subject to the Father and the apostles were subject to Christ and the Father," Magnesians 13:2), and in role ("All of you follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father," Smyrnaeans 8:1), not in nature. These statements anticipate the later view of Tertullian...

    Ignatius calls Almighty God “the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son,” showing the distinction between God and His Son.

    Every trinitarian believes that there is a "distinction between God and his Son", without it one has a modalism rejected as heretical by the church fathers. The Society often acts as if statements distinguishing the Son and the Father problematize trinitarian theologies when they do not. In point of fact, Ignatius veered pretty close on occasion to modalism; in Smyrnaeans 2:2, he states that Jesus "truly raised himself from the dead," whereas most writers said that God raised him from the dead. This is not to say that he was necessarily a modalist; the language rather indicates that Ignatius was not precise in his thinking and wording in the way later writers were. His theology was dominated by the view that Jesus Christ is the visible manifestation of God (Magnesians 8:2).

    Ignatius shows that the Son was not eternal as a person but was created, for he has the Son saying: “The Lord [Almighty God] created Me, the beginning of His ways.” Similarly, Ignatius said: "There is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, 'of whom are all things;' and one Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord, `by whom are all things.' "

    LOL, these are actually two citations from the spurious epistles to the Tarsians and the Philippians, these were NOT written by Ignatius. So bringing them up is only to muddy the waters.

    True, Ignatius calls the Son “God the Word.” But using the word “God” for the Son does not necessarily mean equality with Almighty God. The Bible also calls the Son “God” at Isaiah 9:6. John 1:18 calls the Son “the only-begotten god.” Being vested with power and authority from Jehovah God, the Father, the Son could properly be termed a “mighty one,” which is what “god” basically means.—Matthew 28:18; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2.

    First of all, this statement does not hint at the remarkable frequency with which Ignatius referred to Jesus as God (theos). Second, limiting the meaning of theos to just "mighty one" is a case of special pleading; why not say that the Father is only "a mighty one" as well? Should we refer to the Father as "a god" rather than "God"? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. While the Society uses the anarthrous status of theos in John 1:1, 1:18 to argue that it means "a god" rather than "God," Ignatius in several places used articular theos to refer to Jesus. Thus, he said that "our God (ho theos), Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary" (Ephesians 18:2). He referred to Jesus in his incarnation as truly "God in man" (en anthrópó theos), a phrase that anticipates later two-natures theology but which also coheres to the divine-Christ-in-human-Jesus theology attested quite early (Ephesians 7:2). He referred to the "blood of God" (Ephesians 1:1) and "the suffering/passion of God" (Romans 6:3). Finally, he also referred to Jesus, "who for our sake became visible ... who for our sake endured suffering" as being "above time" (huper kairon) and "eternal/timeless (akhronon) and invisible" (Polycarp 3:2), a remarkable statement ignored by the Society and which by itself can suggest a co-eternity of the Son and Father (since the Father is also eternal, cf. 1 Timothy 1:17, which refers to "God" as eternal and invisble). Why the silence about these statements? Why does the Society quote a spurious statement about Christ being "created" which was not written by Ignatius, yet ignore a statement of Ignatius that referred to Christ as timeless/eternal, invisible, and impassible....language highly suggestive of Deity (cf. Romans 1:20, Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, etc.). The joint timelessness of the Son with the Father is also suggested in Magnesians 6:1: "Jesus Christ, who before the ages (hos pro aiónón) was with the Father," a wording that evokes John 1:1-2.

  • inquirer
    inquirer

    I FORGOT TO MENTION (CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS, NOT SHOUTING) THAT I CHECKED THE SOCIETY'S QUOTES BY LOOKING AT WWW.EARLYCHRISTIANWRITINGS.COM AND THEY ARE NOT TELL A FIB! One of their quotes is even from Ignatius who says IAO as the divine name... I double checked that. Gerard Gertoux mentions that in his book. The WTS does have a obsession with the elipses (...) but I did check a few of the quotes here and there yeah... and how could they have believed in the trinity? If Clement was a contemporary of A. John, why would he change his doctrines? Unless he was a traitor.

    But with any given case, it's like the issue of the cross... Unless you could go back in time and speak to Apostle John or Paul who wrote part of the INSPIRED SCRIPTURES, and ask them their believe on the trinity, it's all hearsay. And I don't believe the NT puts a trinitarian spin on God. I agree with Spectrum and think to myself "no way in hell would Jesus die on the stake." God's the CEO or manager and Jesus is like an assistant manager (I know from experience assistant managers always do work than managers.)

  • inquirer
    inquirer

    amazing1914,

    First, notice that the Society left out the early Church fathers that I quoted. They claim that the Trinty was not fully developed until the 4th century, which is a bold-faced lie. It was fully taught by 150 to 190 AD. See the quoted Clement of Alexandria I put into my post. That cannot be discounted, simply because the Watchtower says so.

    Second, do you ever check Watchtower source references? They often appear to be quoting from the early fathers, when in fact, they are quoting "opinions" about what these Fathers stated.

    Third, even when they use direct quotes from the early Fathers, none of these disprove a Trinity. They are lifted from context, and have no direct bearing on God's nature.

    I honestly don't have time at the moment to deal with these two Watchtower articles [11/1/91 and 2/1/92]. However, after Wednesday, I will deal with them.

    Finally, Inquirer, I wish you could learn how to post in smaller font, with less space in between paragraphs. It is quite simple to do, and it makes your postings a lot easier to read.

    ________
    Well, they obviously had different doctrines back then... Those ones the society quotes from is from the LATE second century! Well, according to wikipedia anyway. I'll have to see this Clement of Alexandria bloke some other time... But people had all kinds of doctrines and I said in another post about Paul talking about people preaching "another Jesus."

    What I find amazing is that the trinity doctrine was not taught til about 2nd century as you AND leolaia was saying. It's either they did or they didn't teach it "explicitly" as leolaia says.

    REMEMBER NOT TIL 150 AD DOES THE TRINITY DOCTRINE DEVELOP INTO THE DOCTRINE WE KNOW TODAY! :) AHH, BLISS! :D :)

    I always have to squint my eyes when I read your posts and others on here because it's too small!!!!!!! The default size should be atleast 12 point (or about 3 in metric.) I always have to press ctrl + to get it to the normal size. I can read a little bit with default size 10 size, but when people have a lot to say and get emotional (nothing wrong with that) I have to push ctrl + to get it to normal. You should see the way Danny Haszard posts! There are quite a few on here that don't post with "normal size." The reason why formatting (spaces between the lines) is like that because I use Firefox and refuse to use Internet Explorer while I browse this message board.

  • inquirer
    inquirer

    Leolaia,

    Like the Trinity broshure, the Watchtower article
    reproduced above only tells half the story. Yes, you do not find the
    Trinity doctrine spelled out or even presumed in NT and early patristic
    sources.
    As the sources presented by Amazing1914 and I show (particularly Athenagorus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria),
    it is not until the second half of the second century where you find
    statements expressing explicit trinitarian (or even full-blown
    binitarian) ideas.


    Inquirer,

    Why the hell do you and Amazing 1914, ignore the basic facts of what took place! There is no need to talk about this anymore. I wonder why others like Blondie didn't quote from this article? Maybe others are sick of the issue? Don't know. Doesn't matter... Just a thought.

    Amazing1914, I looked up Clements article on wiki... and they don't even know when he was born, so that gives my article even more weight.

  • inquirer
    inquirer

    If people started being Trinitarian in the middle of the second century... God that's a long time! 50 years! Anyone could have changed their beliefs by then. I don't know why you trinitarians can't see that!

    Say, leolaia, if you were born in 1956 when the Olympic Games were held in Melbourne, and you think about now? Don't you think a lot of things have changed? So many changes have gone by. People's attitudes, multiculturalism, globalization, shopping on the Internet amongst many other things?

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Inquirer,

    You are funny. Now you are reduced to quoting from Wikipedia, an encyclopedia created online by people who submit information. It is not a credible work. In our university classes, our professors will go nuts if students quote from Wikipedia. Try doing some real research. The 1991-1992 Watchtowers patently lied about the development of the Trinity. Their Trinity brochure is a joke. As I said, I can't take much time wiht your stuff until after class Thursday. Besides, Leolaia did a much better job cleaning your clock, and you just don't know it yet. She did a great job, for example, showing that St. Ignatius, a student of the Apostle John, believed that Jesus is our God.

    Jim Whitney

  • inquirer
    inquirer

    Inquirer,


    You are funny. Now you are reduced to quoting from Wikipedia, an encyclopedia created online by people who submit information. It is not a credible work. In our university classes, our professors will go nuts if students quote from Wikipedia. Try doing some real research. The 1991-1992 Watchtowers patently lied about the development of the Trinity. Their Trinity brochure is a joke. As I said, I can't take much time wiht your stuff until after class Thursday.


    Besides, Leolaia did a much better job cleaning your clock, and you just don't know it yet. She did a great job, for example, showing that St. Ignatius, a student of the Apostle John, believed that Jesus is our God.


    Jim Whitney


    ___


    Jim,


    Most of the things you said were untrue. How about reading my posts properly and see where I get my quotes from? Are you only as good as your lecturer? You start being abusive when I try to give my thoughts on the matter? I don't like the tone in that post. You are starting to be abusive, so we'll just leave it there. PEACE OUT, alright?

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Inquirer,

    Most of the things you said were untrue. How about reading my posts properly and see where I get my quotes from?

    You failed to show how anything I posted was untrue. You failed to read my quotes which are directly from the early Church Fathers, and not from a secondary source. Your quotes come from the Watchtower, which used various sources. You did not read my initial post correctly, or you would not have posted such nonsense. The Watchtower only carefully selects quotes and makes claims which support their own position. They avoid those statements that do not support their position. In many cases, they are extremely untruthful. For example, they claim in the above Watchtower article that the Trinity was not developed until the 4th century. In reality, the full detailed definition was available by no later than 190 AD. This is important because they have a reason for the lie. Because if the JWs began to understand the history behind church teachings, and the early Church Fathers, then they will realize that the Trinity was defended from the beginning. No, the functional term "Trinity" was not used until 150 AD, but the concept was defended from the late first century.

    You start being abusive when I try to give my thoughts on the matter? I don't like the tone in that post. You are starting to be abusive, so we'll just leave it there. PEACE OUT, alright?

    You fail to demonstrate how I am being abusive. I teased you some because I found you to be humorous since you used a less than credible source, and you use the Watchtower, which is known for its dishonesty. I found it humorous, but evidently, you are a sensitive kind of guy, so I will withdraw from directing my humor at you. The only "tone" I expressed in writing is that of humor, and nothing else. All the rest of any "tones" are your private interpretations. Unless otherwise stated, as I have just done, written words to not express tones. The reader always reads into the words the tones that their own mind generates based on how they perceive what is written. Sometimes they are correct, sometimes not. You did not even try to address the excellent work posted by Leolaia. You are just using the "poor me, a victim" category, to avoid the tough issues presented to you by way of her rebuttal, and what you might suspect is coming from me when I get some more time by Thursday.

    If you want to discuss things with me, then do so, but please use credible sources, and make some clear and logical arguments. Also, you really need not make these giant font posts, as they are hard to read, and waste paper and ink printing them out, and they look silly. Sorry if you find my comments abusive, but I am just expressing my opinion, and I have no ill feelings or desire to offend. However, when I am being offended, then I feel I have at least an equal right to say so.

    Jim Whitney

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    REMEMBER NOT TIL 150 AD DOES THE TRINITY DOCTRINE DEVELOP INTO THE DOCTRINE WE KNOW TODAY! :) AHH, BLISS! :D :) ...If people started being Trinitarian in the middle of the second century... God that's a long time! 50 years! Anyone could have changed their beliefs by then. I don't know why you trinitarians can't see that!

    Right. So it's okay then that Jesus was professed as God, described as eternal or "God in man", equal to God and in whom Deity resides, whose being is the precise equivalent of God's substance, etc. etc. because all of that was expressed long before AD 150? That was the point of my post. Read what I said...many (and not necessarily all) component notions of trinitarian thinking are in place early while the synthesis itself is later. By focusing only on the synthesis, you divert attention from these early expressions of faith that run counter to Watchtower theology. The trinity did not come out of nowhere after AD 150; it was an interpretive harmonization of christological and theological views already in place in proto-orthodox churches, and for some of these (such as triadic formulae and the Deity of Christ) there is no dividing line between NT statements and those in the apostolic fathers. The high christology of Ignatius is comparable to that of John, Colossians, or Hebrews. The Watchtower article you reproduced (and the Trinity broshure) is dishonest and very slanted in trying to portray second-century fathers as in harmony with JW theology, and thus deserved a response.

    Say, leolaia, if you were born in 1956 when the Olympic Games were held in Melbourne, and you think about now? Don't you think a lot of things have changed? So many changes have gone by. People's attitudes, multiculturalism, globalization, shopping on the Internet amongst many other things?

    That is neither here nor there, for reasons explained above. You can simply look at the statements of the first century itself to see the wide diversity of theological and christological beliefs that were in place even then. The selective synthesis that builds on these early statements and formalizes a doctrine to harmonize them (such as the Deity of Christ with the monotheistic impulse inherited from Judaism, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, the distinction between the Father and Son, the exact equivalence between the substance of the Father and Son, and the triadic delineation of the functions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or the triadic benedictions of them) is certainly later and the product of thought and reflection, but what of the high christology that is early? It was not representative of all early Christians, but it did exist. The second-century Christians did exactly what the Watchtower Society itself does....it constructs a harmonistic doctrine of who Jesus is and his relation to the Father, tho such a teaching is not expressed explicitly in the Bible. One could just as well complain that nowhere does the Bible contain a statement that explains that Jesus was created as Michael the Archangel who then became a perfect human (without any divine nature on earth), and then who was resurrected into a mighty spirit creature. Both theologies are artificial and explicit in a way actual NT statements are not (as they relate together texts that originally had nothing to do with each other), but as a synthesis, trinitarianism better respects the high christology found in the NT and apostolic fathers.

    I FORGOT TO MENTION (CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS, NOT SHOUTING) THAT I CHECKED THE SOCIETY'S QUOTES BY LOOKING AT WWW.EARLYCHRISTIANWRITINGS.COM AND THEY ARE NOT TELL A FIB!

    I forgot to mention that when the Trinity broshure came out and the WT articles about the early church fathers came out in the early '90s, I was livid by the many misrepresentations found therein, and by then I was very much familiar with the writings of the early church fathers. I had to seriously deal with the question of why the Society had to misrepresent their sources if they had the "truth". Can the "truth" be things that weren't true?

    One of their quotes is even from Ignatius who says IAO as the divine name... I double checked that.

    No, you are surely confused here. I think you are mixing up Irenaeus with Ignatius.

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