The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 86 Replies latest jw friends

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  minimus

  Jim, only the JWs believe that HS is not a person?????
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  Amazing1914

  Minimus,

  There are other non-Trinitarian groups who believe as do Jehovah's Witnesses. My point is that there is nothing I could find in history of the early Church that dealt with the Holy Spirit being a form of divine electricity. Rather, the Holy Spirit was always taken as a person, as far as I can find. If there is a source that shows otherwise, I want to see it. Thanks. - Jim Whitney
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  inquirer

  Did the Early Church Teach That God Is a Trinity?
  (edit - NO THEY DID NOT! SEE BELOW!!!)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:
  
  
  
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  Ignatius did not say that the Son was equal to God the Father in such ways or in any other. Instead, he showed that the Son is in subjection to the One who is superior, Almighty God.
  
  
  
  “There is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son.” 11
  
  
  
  “The Lord [Almighty God] created Me, the beginning of His ways.”12 Similarly, Ignatius said: “There is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, ‘of whom are all things;’ and one Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord, ‘by whom are all things.’”13 He also writes:
  
  
  
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  Polycarp stated:
  
  
  
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  , who wrote in the first part of the second century. In his work the Shepherd, or Pastor, does he say anything that would lead one to believe that he understood God to be a Trinity? Note some examples of what he said:
  
  
  
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  “This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ.” (The Jerusalem Bible) Again, the resurrected Christ in heaven is shown to be entirely separate from God, and the holy spirit is not mentioned. If Jesus were the second person of a Trinity, knowing all things, how could he be “given” a revelation?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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  lovelylil

  Excellent Post.

  I also feel the Trinity is NOT a person. I just cannot wrap my brain around this because the Holy Spirit is always something that is sent out by our Heavenly Father. Also, I have the Didache and other early writings and NONE of these say the Holy Spirit is a person. In the NT anytime you sin against the Holy Spirit, you are sinning against God. No the Holy Spirit is not electricity like the WT teaches either. It does exert power over all believers. True Believers are said to be filled with the Holy Spirit. How can this be a person?

  As far as Jesus, I believe that we will never fully understand Christ's relationship with God. Only he truly knows the father. I am not against saying he is divine like God. I think the early Christians and Pharisees knew as God's son he was equal to God "IN NATURE", not in position. But I can nowhere see any such teaching as the Holy Spirit being a person in the same sense of God and Christ. This is not saying he is in POSITION, equal to the father.

  I stand by my original posts the the Holy Spirit is "personified" but does not mean it is a person. And PLEASE do not tell me I am still indoctrinated by the WT. I believed this to be true when I was 12 and still in the Roman Catholic Church. This is a main reason for my leaving. I could not accept the Holy Spirit as a person. If we accept that simply because the Holy Spirit is a "he", we must then accept that all Gods qualities that are spoken of as he, she, him, must be people too. This would include wisdom, justice, prudence, and other qualities.

  I don't mind reading the early church fathers but I must weigh it according to the scriptures themselves. If anyone thinks they could show me otherwise where I am wrong in the scriptures, please show me. I am open to reading anything and at least listening to the other persons views.
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  Amazing1914

  Inquirer,

  First, notice that the Society left out the early Church fathers that I quoted. They claim that the Trinty was not fully developed until the 4th century, which is a bold-faced lie. It was fully taught by 150 to 190 AD. See the quoted Clement of Alexandria I put into my post. That cannot be discounted, simply because the Watchtower says so.

  Second, do you ever check Watchtower source references? They often appear to be quoting from the early fathers, when in fact, they are quoting "opinions" about what these Fathers stated.

  Third, even when they use direct quotes from the early Fathers, none of these disprove a Trinity. They are lifted from context, and have no direct bearing on God's nature.

  I honestly don't have time at the moment to deal with these two Watchtower articles [11/1/91 and 2/1/92]. However, after Wednesday, I will deal with them.

  Finally, Inquirer, I wish you could learn how to post in smaller font, with less space in between paragraphs. It is quite simple to do, and it makes your postings a lot easier to read.

  Lovelylil,

  The Bible quotes the Holy Spirit speaking in the first person, in the New Testament. The context, writing style, and meaning of the verses do not allow for an application of personification. Personification is largely contained in poetic books, such as Proverbs. Whereas the Holy Spirit speaks in the first person in Acts, which is not poetic, but a historical narrative. Personification is over used by the Society as "Proof by Analogy (False Analogy)" thus using fallacious logic.

  A good example is found in Acts 21:11, where the Holy Spirit speaks directly:

  And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that oweth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles." - KJV / AV At Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit speaks in the first person! And as the minitered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Separate me Barnabus and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." - KJV / AV

  Jesus and the Apostle Paul said that the most serious is the sin against the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a mere thing, a symbol of agent representing the Father, then it does not make sense that a sin aganist the agent (a mere thing) of someone is greater than the person whom the agent represents.

  Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  I was quite interested in that verse in Acts where you say the Holy Spirit himself speaks, as I have read the bible many times through and never saw it. When I looked it up in several bible translations, this is what I found:

  Acts 21:10,11 New International Version

  10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea

  11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.

  (NASB)

  10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.

  11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

  (KING JAMES VERSION)

  10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

  11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

  These are just a few bibles that clearly show that the prophet Agabus is the one who held onto Pauls girdle and spoke saying "the Holy Spirit says", it is not the Holy Spirit himself speaking. All of Gods prophets are filled with Holy Spirit, and this is why he could say "the Holy Spirit" says. Another way to say this is "the Holy Spirit moves me to say", Remember men were "borne along by Holy Spirit" when they wrote the Bible? What translation are you using that you think this verse says it is the person of the Holy Spirit speaking?

  You gave some information about the Spirit being spoken of in the first person, Jim I think you have to put down the books you use for your information and pick up the bible itself. Can you show me any scriptural proof that the trinity doctrine is not just man trying to explain the nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. Do you have another scripture that you think is conclusive proof of the Holy Spirit doing anything on its own? If so I would love to see it. Thanks Lilly
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  Amazing1914

  I edited my post, because it did not all show up. Read Acts 13:2, it is the Holy Spirit speaking in first person.

  The other verse may involve other people, but the Holy Spirit is still the one being quoted. Even the Watchtower NWT had the sense to add quotation marks to quote the Holy Spirit.

  Jim W.
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  Thanks for the update. This one scripture cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking. Because the Holy Spirit is what causes some to prophesy and understand the will of God. Some will say "the Spirit says" but mean the Spirit moves them to believe in something.

  In the beginning of this chapter 13 of Acts we see there are many gathered together in prayer including Prophets and teachers. While they were praying the Holy Spirit said "set apart Barnabas and Saul" for a certain work. This is not conclusive proof because this information could have come from one of the Prophets, not necessarily from the mouth of the Holy Spirit.

  Whenever anyone in the OT was filled with Holy Spirit, what they prophesied was not attributed to anyone but God. And certainly no a person called the Holy Spirit. We must take ALL the Bible in its entirety to understand some verses. It simply would not make sense to change here in this one verse and say, the Holy Spirit Himself is speaking. The Holy Spirit is the same in the OT as the NT. In one of my Bibles, the NIV, the writers seem to agree with my view. Here is the footnote regarding this scripture:

  It reads regarding this verse: "this communication from the Holy Spirit may have come through the Prophets". Meaning the Prophets present during this prayer session. So they are saying basically Holy Spirit of God revealed to them what God had planned for these two men. This is in line with the Bible totally.

  Have you ever felt Holy Spirit on you? I have many times and I have felt this "influence" direct me towards a scripture or thought needed in a certain moment. My whole ministry work I am in now is guided strictly by the Holy Spirit. I pray for God's guidance and go wherever I feel the Spirit move me. This is hard to explain to those who may not have felt this but I know from Personal experience what the Holy Spirit is.

  Have any other scriptures?
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  Amazing1914

  Lovelylil,

  I understand your arguments, but they are plausibilities which ignore the fact that the Holy Spirit spoke in first person. You can add all the ginger bread about how this is done with Apostles and prophets, but read Act 13:2 again, as you cut off the last part of the verse:

  Lovelylil says: " ... Holy Spirit said "set apart Barnabas and Saul" for a certain work. " This is not conclusive proof because this information could have come from one of the Prophets, not necessarily from the mouth of the Holy Spirit.

  Bible says, "And as the minitered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Separate me Barnabus and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

  Your commentary lifted the text out of context, and left off the portion where the Holy Spirit says " ... I have called them." Yes, I know you were just making a point, but your point ignores the very clause that shows your argument to be in error: He, the Holy Spirit is talking in first person!

  Various Bible translations, including the NWT uses quotations marks, thus showing someone speaking in first person. If we can't even discuss something in basic language, then we cannot have any kind of debate. You are doing nothing more than offering dance-around the Scripture explanations, and ignoring clear and solid language in the Bible. So, what is the point of offering Scriptual proof, when you will not accept what is written in the Bible? It is a pointless argument, isn't it?

  I am not going to try and prove anything, because I learned a long time ago that people believe what they want to believe. All I am saying is that the Bible shows the Holy Spirit speaking on his own, about his own action. Thus, I fully met the condition of your challenge, and the case is closed.

  Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  I am glad you feel you are the final authority on the subject and can close the case when you are done, but I don't think that is fair just because I am asking questions. Keep reading verses 4-9, it shows that the work they (Paul and Barnabas) were called to do was proclaiming the truth about God and that HE (God) filled them with the Holy Spirit. Because in verse 9 it says Paul spoke while filled with Holy Spirit. Why does it state here Paul was filled with Holy Spirit as opposed to the Holy Spirit spoke? Because it is the same thing that is why. When people say the Holy Spirit speaks to them, they are not hearing spirits. But rather they feel God's influence moving them to speak in a certain way.

  I was simply saying you cannot use only one obscure verse to prove a point. The Holy Spirit is not a new teaching only in the NT. The Holy Spirit of God has been around in the OT also. Many Christians experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirt, including myself. I understand exactly what it means to have the Holy Spirit speak to you. Has anyone else out there reading this have this experience?

  I don't except the NWT as a good translation of scripture. It is a very biased version made specifically to square up with the WT teachings. I have at least 10 translations in my home. Many of these agree with my interpretation of that verse in Acts 13. I also have several Bible Commentary books which agrees with my intepretation.

  I think you are a very intelligent guy but please don't get frustrated just because you cannot prove your view to someone. I am not upset with you at all. As a future lawyer, you will be asked to prove much more serious things than this issue. Anyway, have a good night. I am turning in too. If you want, we can continue with this, if not then thats o.k. too. We agree with a lot of other things.