Math Problem

by Scully 23 Replies latest social entertainment

  • Scully
    Scully

    A riddle for you to figure out :

    Three kids go into a store to buy a picture frame for their mom for Mother’s Day. They find a frame that costs $30. They each pay $10 to make up the total. ($10x3=$30)

    As they are leaving, the shopkeeper realizes that the picture frame was only $25. He decided to give the kids back $1 each, and keep $2 for himself. (3x$1=$3, $3+$2=$5)

    So the kids each paid $9 for the frame, which gives a total of $27. The shopkeeper has $2, for a total of $29.

    ($9x3=$27, $27+$2=$29)

    What happened to the extra $1?

    I'm printing this out for my kids to work on tonight.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    The Watchtower stole it, just like they did with the zero year.

    W

  • La Capra
    La Capra

    Ah, man, Scully, I am supposed to be studying for my last law school final ever....

    The kids were supposed to pay 25 dollars for the frame, but in the end they paid 27 (30 - 3 that was returned). The shop keeper kept 2 dollars. 25 + 3 + 2 = 30.

    The set up of this combines the negative (what goes to the shopkeeper) with the positive (what came back).

    Shoshana (of the will be done with law school in about 12 hours class)

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    The problem with the riddle is this...

    The kids dont spend $9. They spend $9.3333333333.

    The cost of the frame is $25, which means that each kid spends $8.333333. If he gives them back a dollar each, they have now each spent $9.33333, which for all three of them adds up to $28. The $2 he keeps make it $30 even...

  • Scully
    Scully

    I'd already figured it out, Shoshana! But thanks!!

    Congratulations (12 hours early!) on finishing law school!

  • La Capra
    La Capra

    Slacker, your logic is flawed. Each kid spent ten and got 1 dollar back, not $.666666. (High School math teacher here, not trying to be a smart ass for no reason, but I do have some ego to protect....) Your logic is the same as the problem.. You are combining what the shopkeeper kept with what the shopkeeper gave back. They are mutually exclusive funds.

    Shoshana

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    You've mastered misdirection well Scully(assuming you went to the College of WTS as I did).

    $30 went into the til - Shopkeeper gave $3 back - kept $2 for himself= $25

    The $25 that is still in the til + the $3 that the kids got back + the $2 that the shopkeeper kept = $30.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    The shopkeeper doesn't have $29. He charged $30 and refunded $3. So, he charged a net of $27 ($25 in the till and $2 in his pocket), which is the same as the kids paid.

  • VM44
    VM44

    You can also look at it this way by asking this question, "From where did the shopkeeper get the $2 he kept?"

    Answer: From the student's $27 total contribution (3x$9)!

    Thus the shopkeeper's $2 would be counted TWICE if it is added to the student's contribution ($27+$2=$29)

    The fallacy came about by thinking that the students still had $9 each AFTER the transaction!

    So where did the money end up AFTER the transactions?

    The shopkeeper's pocket: $2

    The shopkeeper's cash register: $25

    Student 1: $1

    Student 2: $1

    Student 3: $1

    Total: $30

    and so the equation should be:

    MONEY BEFORE THE TRANSACTION = MONEY AFTER THE TRANSACTION

    10+10+10 = 1+1+1+25+2

    or,

    9+9+9 = 25+2

    --VM44

  • Terry
    Terry

    What this math problem illustrates is why one procedure works in problem solving and others don't.

    Context and issue framing are key issues in math and in everyday life.

    When "facts" are presented in a particular way they can seem compatible with reality and yet not add up.

    It is as true for religion as for a math problem.

    Bertrand Russell discovered this to his dismay. Read below a quote from Wikipedia:


    Russell continued to defend logicism, the view that mathematics is in some important sense reducible to logic, and along with his former teacher, Alfred North Whitehead, wrote the monumental Principia Mathematica, an axiomatic system on which all of mathematics can be built. The first volume of the Principia was published in 1910, which is largely ascribed to Russell. More than any other single work, it established the specialty of mathematical or symbolic logic. Two more volumes were published, but their original plan to incorporate geometry in a fourth volume was never realised, and Russell never felt up to improving the original works, though he referenced new developments and problems in his preface to the second edition. Upon completing the Principia, three volumes of extraordinarily abstract and complex reasoning, Russell was exhausted, and he never felt his intellectual faculties fully recovered from the effort. Although the Principia did not fall prey to the paradoxes in Frege's approach, it was later proven by Kurt Gödel that neither Principia Mathematica, nor any other consistent system of primitive recursive arithmetic, could, within that system, determine that every proposition that could be formulated within that system was decidable, i.e. could decide whether that proposition or its negation was provable within the system ( Gödel's incompleteness theorem ).


    What lesson did Russell learn that Godel understood which is applicable to our simple Math Problem?

    Any system which is self-referential is recursive and leads to Paradox.

    Terry

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