Short Survey for Non-Trinitarians

by Amazing1914 56 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Lovelylil,

    Thank you. I'm glad it helped to some extent. Even more so as I am not a Trinitarian!

    Just to make my stance a bit clearer, I think JWs are right in that the Trinity cannot be deduced from the only NT. It is a 4th-century synthesis. The earlier NT texts reflect very diverse theologies, to which no later synthesis can really do justice -- and certainly not the WT one either!

    To answer your last question, I really don't know what I believe now. I am still interested in religion, mythology and theology, but I have become increasingly unsatisfied with the monotheistic notion of "God" -- even though I think the Trinitarian doctrine, and perhaps even more the Gnostic thought (in which I include the Gospel of John) which has contributed to it, albeit conflictually, are fascinating developments of Jewish monotheism.

    Shortly after I was df'd for apostasy 20 years ago, I had the opportunity to study theology, and realised how little I knew about it from the WT publications I had been reading for many years. That's why I feel xJWs who are still interested in the issue should at least read about it from serious sources.

    One more thing: In the booklet "should you believe the trinity", the WT showed images of three headed looking idols from ancient babylon. They said that these were basically satanic images to mislead people into worshipping a false God. But I was thinking recently that I remember always being taught that Satan, who wants Gods worship for himself, is always making COPIES, if you will of what belongs to God. True religion we have - false religion, etc. So maybe Satan got the idea to copy the true image of God (triune) with false Gods who look triune in nature? Thus the images of Gods with three heads?

    This cuts both ways I guess. As I am not inclined to believe in the theory of "Satan mimicking God," this argument doesn't really convince me. On the other hand existing divine triads may have influenced the concept at a subconscious level, or made it more acceptable to the masses at popular level. But as far as theology is concerned, I think the philosophical concepts of neo-platonism had a far greater influence on 4th-century theologians than "pagan" religious beliefs.

    Jim,

    Thanks for bearing with me.

    "Just as there is only ONE Humanity, with billions of members who are each fully human, likewise, there is only ONE Divinity (God), with only three members, each fully Divine (God)."
    What this definition does for me is to make a paradigm shift from view the term "God" as just another name for a single person, the instead, understanding God as Divinity, or a category that one belong to or not. ; The above definition is the best that I have ever heard.

    Isn't that tritheism, i.e. polytheism, rather than Trinitarian monotheism? Three "individuals" of the divine nature would make three gods. just like three individuals of mankind would make three "men" (or women). It was indeed one tendency in the late 2nd and early 3rd century (e.g. Tertullian), against modalism (God as one person in three modes of action), but it was ultimately rejected. To me it relies too much on the usual sense of "person" (btw, persona was introduced into the debate by Tertullian afaik). The Greek equivalent, hupostasis, is less subject to this kind of (mis-)understanding, especially as defined by the so-called Cappadocian Fathers (Basil of Cesarea, Gregor of Nyssa and Gregor of Nazianzus). in the 4th-century.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Narkissos,

    I agree with you on how little we learned about theology from the WT. I was in for 12 years. I am just now listening to opposing views and understanding more where others views also make sense. And I have been reading a lot from ancient historians and other bible books not included by the church fathers. As well as a history of the early church. And information on the Jews as a nation and thier beliefs. My mind is truly opened more and I can see how much information was missing. You can only come to certain conclusions in the WT by reading their material. There is a wealth of information missing. For instance, and this could be a latter discusion, I just found out recently that all the signs of Jesus coming in Matthew 24 (or a good part of them), actually applied ONLY to the destruction of Jeruselum and they have already been fulfilled. History proves it. But if you look at the signs you can say "yes, they seem to be speaking about our day". If I had not read information from Josephus and the history of Jewish Wars, I would never have known that. If we read things for face value only without looking indebth, and checking history records, we cannot get the proper understanding of the bible. I am considering doing more research and maybe taking a bible study course or two to help widen my view. Thanks again, I am looking forward to more input from others. And you are correct and I agree, we cannot use our terms to explain some things in the bible. Even the bible itself says some things are mysterious and we cannot fully comprehend. This was a pretty deep discussion today and my brain hurts!!!! I will be printing it all out to review again.By the way, I am an APOSTATE too because I have an opened mind. Oh, and apparently a Jezzebel also because I misled my husband away from the troof! (sarcasm intended)

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hi Lovelylil,

    I tried getting on JWD last night, but the system kept showing an error message. Anyway, here are some comments about your points:

    I would like to clarify what I mean by Jesus being God in the beginning; I belive if Jehovah is Divine (God) that his son must also be Divine. Not that they are the same person. Jesus is said to have been in the bossom of God and the exact representation of his being. They are both the only Divine people in the universe and are truly unique. Therefore they share the same qualities in a way we humans cannot fully understand. The bible writers used terms we could relate too but I dont believe even they fully understood everything about God. I do believe Jesus is seperate because the bible says once he was resurrected he sat at God's right hand. therefore he must be a seperate person. I know I am not doing justice to the bible as I am only a human and cannot fully understand all Gods ways. But I am NOT a trinitarian in its true sense. I think the truth lies somewhere in between what JWs believe and what trinitarians believe.

    What you describe here is nearly identical with the Trinity doctrine, except that it is a "duality" rather than a Trinity. St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, called Jesus the True God. St. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, a good friend of Jesus Mother, Mary, and he was groomed and appointed Bishop of Antioch by St. Peter.

    What I mean is that Jesus cannot be "a god" like the JWs believe because if there is only one true God, then Jesus would be a false God. So when I say he was God (john 1:1), I mean only that he is a divine being a full manifestation and reflection of God, but not the same person as Jehovah. Here, John 1:1 the Apostle John tries to explain it in the best words he can use. Read it in its full context and you will get the jist of what John was saying. )read the whole chapter of John 1.) That Jesus was divine but then became flesh (human) and dwelt among us. But because of who he is, Jehovah shares his titles and power and everything belonging to him with his unique son. And because of this people confuse him with actually being Jehovah. Hope this explains better. As I said, I am only human and can only explain things using our human terminology which does not do justice to Gods word.

    You've done a good job of explaining your points, and you make good points.

    As far as the early church fathers, I have read their writings they also believe Jesus to be the divine son of God and that the Holy spirit existed and was personified (or had personality) but I am not clear that they felt Jesus was the same person as Jehovah. To me it seems that while they believed in God and Jesus and that the holy spirit was from God (his spirit), I cannot find anything that says they believed the Holy Spirit to be an "actual person" and that Jesus was the same. But even if they did use these terms to try to explain what and who God is, does not mean that they as humans are actually explaining it fully correct either. We have to put things in terms we can understand. Some things are only hazy at this time, like the Apostle Paul said. In the future, we will all get the full understanding.

    The early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene) in the beginning, were fighting heresies from the days of the Apostles, all the way to the Council at Nicea in 325 and the Council of Constantinople in 381. They never at anytime fought against any trinitarian concept, because that is what they believed, even though they didn't call it by that definition. Interestingly enough, at no time did any heretic introduce the Trinity so that it gained acceptance and corrupted the Church. Rather, it was all other theories about God that were introduced that the early Church Fathers fought against. Arius, a Priest in the region under the authority of Athanasius, was the prime mover of the heresy that resembles what the Watchtower teaches today. The only difference is that Arius did not challenge the person of the Holy Spirit, he simply demoted Jesus from being God.

    His superior, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, became the prime mover of developing the definition that became used at the Council of Nicea. Although, Athanasius was not the first to use the term, as it had already been in use. If the triune nature of God had been the false heresy introduced by apostates, then we would have found a defense against it in early Church writings. However, we find none.

    I have some interesting things I will post about Jesus mother, Mary. In fact, it was a letter she wrote to St. Ignatius, that helped me in this process.

    Thanks again for your excellent comments.

    Jim Whitney

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Jim,

    I did read about the arian (hope I spelled correctly) heresey which I believe was that Jesus was a created being and not divine in nature and always with the father. As far as John 1:1, the Witnesses and other groups like 7th day adventists and bible students add the work "a" to say Jesus was a god. But John knew he was God. Then they ask if Jesus is God than who is Jehovah? They are not reading the bible in its context. To me it is clear Jesus is Divine and has always been with Jehovah. So I can see what you and Narkissos are saying about the trintiy doctrine. When I read John 1:1 to me it basically is saying: The Word (Jesus) was with God (Jehovah) in the beginning (before time was as we know it and before anything was created), The Word (Jesus) was GOD. Not a God, so he was God and was With Him. This concept is hard for us to understand but that is what it says. Then Jesus Who was divine and God gave up not only his position, like some claim but his Divinity also and became flesh. (human).

    The witnesses and bible students teach that ONLY once Jesus gave up his life for us was he raised to spirit again and glorified by Jehovah and given a higher position. But in John 17:5 in a prayer to Jehovah (father) Jesus says "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" Not a new glorified position but the SAME glory he already had.

    Like I said I only had trouble understanding the Holy Spirit part because as Narisssos brought out, I was thinking of it as a person in our human terms. I better understand now. We are told to baptize in the name of father, son and holy spirit so therefore they are linked together in a triune way. I am still not a full trinitarian but am willing to do more research because I admit I do not know much about it so therefore, I cannot rebuke it without first having properly researched.

    As far as Jesus being a created Angel Michael, that is crap! When I left the Witnesses, I spent a year studying this belief and wrote a research paper proving it totally false. If you would like a copy of it or anyone else I can email it to you. Just send me an email [email protected] Dont worry I am not afraid of crazy emails from Witnesses, I get them all the time along with emails from Christians all over the world and the majority of the emails I get are very encouraging and supportive, I have met many wonderful people. If you have any research or know of any books you think will help me with this doctrine, please email me. I would love to learn more.

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hi Lovelylil,

    Just a small correction: The 7th Day Adventists are full Trinitarian. Although, in the distant past, maybe they held another view. Their forunners, the 2nd Advent movement if the 19th century had many variations, some of which use the name Adventist.

    As far as Jesus being a created Angel Michael, that is crap! When I left the Witnesses, I spent a year studying this belief and wrote a research paper proving it totally false. If you would like a copy of it or anyone else I can email it to you. Just send me an email [email protected]

    Excellent! I fully agree with your comments. I would enjoy a copy of your research. Please go ahead and send it to my e-mail address shown below.

    Dont worry I am not afraid of crazy emails from Witnesses, I get them all the time along with emails from Christians all over the world and the majority of the emails I get are very encouraging and supportive, I have met many wonderful people.

    I don't worry about e-mails. I started on ex-JW forums in the 1990s. I have been on JWD since March of 2001. I have received my share of weird e-mails, hate e-mails, as well as good and encouraging e-mails. The reason that my current screen name shows March of 2004, is that I changed my screen name to Amazing1914 right after I gave testimony against the Watchtower in certain child abuse cases. [Blondie posted a link to my comments on the trial above in this thread.] My old screen name, Amazing, was deactivated for about 18 months for certain reasons. Now it is reactivated, so it has all my nearly 4,000 posts. I just got use to the new name, and have failed to change back. My email address is: [email protected]

    Oddly enough, the numbers 1914 and 75 in my screen name and e-mail were given to be randomly by Hotmail. It was almost spooky how it happened that way. I do not use the 1914 address at all, but I simply used it to create the new account ... with Simon's permission, of course.

    If you have any research or know of any books you think will help me with this doctrine, please email me. I would love to learn more.

    I have tons of research on the JWs, as well as early Christians. I will send you some links to your e-mail address later on. Today is tax day for me, so I have to finish up that project first. By the way, I have a copy of a most interesting letter from the Virgin Mary. It is the only known letter she ever wrote. I will post it to the board. I will also post the letter she was responding to, and the reasons for her response. I think that you will be amazed. I would like your comments.

    Thanks, Jim Whitney

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    thanks Jim can't wait to read it. Lil

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene) in the beginning, were fighting heresies from the days of the Apostles, all the way to the Council at Nicea in 325 and the Council of Constantinople in 381. They never at anytime fought against any trinitarian concept, because that is what they believed, even though they didn't call it by that definition. Interestingly enough, at no time did any heretic introduce the Trinity so that it gained acceptance and corrupted the Church. Rather, it was all other theories about God that were introduced that the early Church Fathers fought against.

    To me, that's church history à la Eusebius, i.e., history as told by the prevailing 4th-century church leaders. Of course they will claim that what they now believe was always believed among "true Christians," reading their doctrine back into the previous generations of Church Fathers as much as they can, and dismissing the rest as "heresiarchs" instead of "Church Fathers".

    Most (even confessional) church historians would rather admit that the earlier debates (with Gnosticism, modalism, etc.) were instrumental in gradually defining the 4th-century Trinity doctrine, and that this doctrine cannot be simply read back into earlier works, including the NT.

    I have some interesting things I will post about Jesus mother, Mary. In fact, it was a letter she wrote to St. Ignatius, that helped me in this process.

    Well, you know that the correspondence between Ignatius and Mary is a very late fabrication, don't you?

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.htm

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Narkissos,

    Thanks for your last post. I agree with you about the early church fathers. They were the same way about which bible books should be included in the bible. I personally have read the teaching of the 12 Apostles (Didache), Book of Baruch, and Enoch and really enjoyed them. I think if anything they compliment the bible. I still feel while Christ is divine like God and we cannot fully understand his relationship with Jehovah, because even the Apostles did not. What they did was describe it for us in the best way they can in human terms for us to understand. But I understand some people views better on what the Holy Spirit is and do not think they are saying its a person per say, I still cannot become a full fledged trinitarian in its fullest sense. I found some interesting scriptures that show that both Jehovah and Jesus USED holy spirit to accomplish their purpose. So I am thinking it is a divine quality and therefore can be personified. Like in the bible other qualites such as wisdom and prudence are spoken of as people, and females also! (Proverbs, I believe chapter 8 or 9). Just because the Holy spirit is called a HE its not clear that we should think of it as a him instead of a what. But I do understand it more. I also believe that the father, son and holy spirit have always been together. I am thinking Holy Spirit is what binds them together for it is supposed to live in us as christians and bind us in unity with the father and son. At least this is how I understand it. But I do want to read more views on the trinity because I think it is interesting, I am just not calling myself a trinitarian. Also, thanks for that link on Mary's letter. I also have a book of lost bible books and that letter as well as other suspect letters are in there too. But I like to read it anyway to understand other peoples views.

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    There is certainly no support in the Pauline letters or theology for the Trinitarian formulation of Athanasius and judging from those same letters there is no way that the early Christians believed in a Christ as an absolute equal of God unless we are to twist the meaning of verses like: "man is the head of woman and God is the head of Christ", and on many occasions Paul uses the expression: "the God of our Lord Jesus". Who is the God of Jesus? Obviously his Father. Yet Jesus is never called the God of the Father.

    And even John in Revelation has Jesus calling His Father "my God". Now surely Jesus is the Supreme Lord of mankind and indeed a very powerful God, much more so than satan the god of this world, but he is still subordinate to the Father, his head.

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    narkissos,

    To me, that's church history à la Eusebius, i.e., history as told by the prevailing 4th-century church leaders. Of course they will claim that what they now believe was always believed among "true Christians," reading their doctrine back into the previous generations of Church Fathers as much as they can, and dismissing the rest as "heresiarchs" instead of "Church Fathers".

    I have to disagree. I am not looking at Church history from the viewpoint of Eusebius, but rather my own readings of most of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers over the last 18 months. My observation is that they fought all sorts of heresies, but never did they fight a heresey that was in any way promoting anything similar to trinitarism. The Trinity is the result of all those years of fighting every other heresy.

    Most (even confessional) church historians would rather admit that the earlier debates (with Gnosticism, modalism, etc.) were instrumental in gradually defining the 4th-century Trinity doctrine, and that this doctrine cannot be simply read back into earlier works, including the NT.

    True, except in my case I am not reading back into earlier works. I am observing something quite contrary to Watchtower theology, which would have us believe that fiathful little early Bible students were fighting against the Trinity until they were overwhelmed by evil apostates, and that Arius was the last of the faithful little flock. Instead, there is nothing remotely supporting anti-trinitarism or anything resembling Watchtower theology. Further, the early Church fathers fought ideas that later could be called anti-trinitarian.

    Well, you know that the correspondence between Ignatius and Mary is a very late fabrication, don't you?

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.htm

    I read the entire article, and nothing in it suggest any such fabrication. It instead strongly supports Catholic theology. Given that I have read all of Ignatius' autheniticated letters, I have found in them enough reference to support his views of Mary. And to date, nothing has been found which questions the credibility of Mary's letter back to Ignatius. Greendawn,
    There is certainly no support in the Pauline letters or theology for the Trinitarian formulation of Athanasius and judging from those same letters there is no way that the early Christians believed in a Christ as an absolute equal of God unless we are to twist the meaning of verses like: "man is the head of woman and God is the head of Christ", and on many occasions Paul uses the expression: "the God of our Lord Jesus". Who is the God of Jesus? Obviously his Father. Yet Jesus is never called the God of the Father.
    The early Christians did not really have a Bible for over two centuries. They had ocassional access to some of the letters of early Church Fathers, and some of the Apostles, the Old Testament, and other works. The Bible, as we know it was compiled by Trinitarians called Catholics (Roman and Orthodox). They decided what was inspired and what was not inspired. The relevance is that if the Trinity were an evil apostate doctrine, then why would God use Trinitarians to compile his inspired works. Rather, would he not prefer to have someone in Brooklyn decide what is inspired and part of the Bible canon? Jesus Christ, as a man on earth, was fully man, and as such he subordinated himself to the Father in every sense. So, in this way, Paul could speak of Jesus in a human view. St. Ignatius, a disciple of the Apostle John, an admirer of the Apostle Paul, groomed by the Apostle Peter to become Bishop of Antioch, called Jesus the "True God" in one of his letters to the Apostle John, his teacher. How do we think that St. Ignatius would read the Apostle Paul's words? The problem we as ex-JWs have is that we have been so twisted by the Watchtower brainwashing machine, that we are unable to get past their rudementary junk.
    And even John in Revelation has Jesus calling His Father "my God". Now surely Jesus is the Supreme Lord of mankind and indeed a very powerful God, much more so than satan the god of this world, but he is still subordinate to the Father, his head.
    What verse in Revelation is that? Jesus, as taught in Trinitarian thought, willingly subordinates himself to the Father, just as the Holy Spirit subordinates himself to the Father. Jesus is unique in that he has both a Divine and Human level of subordination. He does not have to do so. The initial purpose of this post was not to defend the Trinity, but to see what ex-JWs who are Christian, but not Trinitarian, they think about the Holy Spirit. So far, there have been just few takers. It is obvious to me that a good number of ex-JWs do not know what they believe. I felt this way for a long time after I left the JWs. I was neutral toward the Trinity. Today, I do not necessarily support any definition, but I do understand that several of the early Church Fathers saw Jesus as both human and as the True God. They likewise treated the Holy Spirit as a person, though they did not formulate the exact definition of the Trinity until Nicea in 325 and Constantinople in 381, they nonetheless had those sentiments. They as much assured this by the creation of what became known as the Apostles Creed, which dates back to the early Chruch Fathers, and is the basis on which the Nicene Creed was constucted. Jim Whitney

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