Short Survey for Non-Trinitarians

Amazing1914

The Survey is intended for any ex-JWs who remain Christian, but continue to be non-Trinitarian. Please give a concise, well developed statement of what you believe regarding the Holy Spirit. Please do not go into lengthy dissertations trying to prove your point. I am only interested in your current concept of the Holy Spirit.

I will be using some generalized samples for a talk I am giving at BRCI* this June. I will not cite anyone specifically as a source, unless you want to be credited. My intent is to simply show what ex-JWs "non-Trinitarians" commonly believe with respect to the Holy Spirit, given their rejection of Watchtower doctrines.

Thanks in advance for your help. - Jim Whitney

BRCI: Bible Research and Commentary International, founded by several former Jehovah's Witnesses. You can view their site at:

Http://www.BRCI.org/

Finally-Free

The Survey is intended for any ex-JWs who remain Christian, but continue to be non-Trinitarian.

My intent is to simply show what ex-JWs commonly believe with respect to the Holy Spirit, given their rejection of Watchtower doctrines.

By asking only those of us who are Christian but non-Trinitarian, how could this possibly show "what ex-JWs commonly believe with respect to the Holy Spirit"?

W

blondie

The Survey is intended for any ex-JWs who remain Christian, but continue to be non-Trinitarian

When viewed with this first statement I think this next statement becomes clearer.
"what ex-JWs commonly believe with respect to the Holy Spirit"?
Blondie

Finally-Free

No, it doesn't really become clearer - that is the source of the confusion. How can someone get a accurate answer about what ex-JWs commonly believe when only a specific segment of ex-JWs are requested to participate in the survey?

W

blondie

I'll let him explain then.

We can only speak to our own beliefs as an ex-JW which is what I think he wants, not an opinion about what the community of ex-JWs believe, of which a unity of thought there is not.

Blondie

blondie

BTW, Amazing is no troll and has provided many educational and humorous moments about life as a JW in the WTS organization.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/68146/1064423/post.ashx#1064423

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/69867/1099038/post.ashx#1099038

Blondie

Amazing1914

Finally-Free,

This survey is not intended to show that the majority of ex-JWs become Trinitarian or remain non-Trinitarian. The purpose is to simply understand what ex-JWs who are non-Trinitarian believe about the Holy Spirit. I already know what Trinitarian ex-JWs believe about the Holy Spirit. They believe that he is a person of the Trinity. So, their view is not necessary at this time.

I want to know what non-Trinitarians commonly believe about the Holy Spirit. That is all.

Thanks, Jim Whitney

Star Moore

Hey Jim,

That definately fits me. I left in Sept. after 26 as a witness. I'm still very religious but definately NON trinitarian...

To me the Holy Spirit is still the same..as the witnesses believe.. God's active force, God's power, God's breath...

lovelylil

Amazing,

When I was an active JW we were taught that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Since leaving and thru much study and prayer I now believe that Jesus is not Micheal but Gods only son and that he is the Logos, the divine son of God. I believe if God is divine, his son must be also. Just as a human cannot beget or sire something that is not human. Although God did not make Jesus in the same way a human father would, beget is still a term that means sired. He was not created like the angels rather he always existed with God. And was a part of God. See John 1:1. The JWs twist this verse and say you cannot be with someone and be them. Well, if you are divine like them I believe this verse to make perfect sense. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning (before time was), he was God (divine and part of the father) and was with him. Meaning always with him. The problem I always had with the trinity is that I cannot believe, no matter how much I study this doctrine that the holy spirit is an actual person. But I also do not believe it is an impersonal force like the witnesses teach. Its very hard to explain exactly in words what I believe now because we cannot box God into our human ideals. But I will give it a try and hope I do not confuse anyone.

I believe in the father (Jehovah) who is God and in his only son (Jesus) who is divine like him. The son is the only one who shares the same glory as the father and is the EXACT representation of his being (think of your reflection in a mirror). Therefore, God shares his glory with the son and wants us to honor his son like we honor him. Many of the OT titles given to Jehovah are applied to Jesus in the NT therefore showing we can properly glorify and pray to him. I believe that they (Jehovah and Jesus) are tied together by Gods holy spirit which is his essence or spirit. I believe this same spirit lives in all conscecrated believers so in theory: God and Christ live in us. (thru the spirit). God uses this Holy Spirit to move peoples hearts and minds to accomplish his will. And his Holy Spirit was used during creation.

Someone once pointed out to me that if the Holy Spirit comes from God, it must also have divine properties. This I can except to a point. I still do not believe it is a person. A person cannot fill my heart and mind. It must be a spiritual force but it is not impersonal like electricity. The bible does say we cannot see this spirit. Jesus compared it in the NT to the wind. So, I do believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit but object to the Spirit being a person in the literal sense and I object to the term trinity because it is not in the bible. I hope this helps.

One last thing, I have found numerous texts in the Old Testament that seem to show Jesus prior to his coming to earth and prove he is not Michael. I am actually working on a research paper about this. (In Daniel Jesus is seen numerous times and we can tell it is him by the description of the resurrected Christ in Rev.). Maybe I will start a thread on this topic once I have my research completed.

Amazing1914

Hi Lovelylil,

Thank you for giving a very thoughtful, well developed and interesting explanation. I have a different view, but I want to characterize how non-Trinitarian ex-JWs see the Holy Spirit today. I have an extensive level of research on the Holy Spirit. If you are interested, I will post some of my more interesting findings.

Since I have not received very many responses to my survey, perhaps I can digress and ask you a few questions in the spirit of mild debate or exchange, if you wish. Or maybe I should start a new thread in the "Beliefs" section of the board. How would you answer some or all of these questions?:

If the Holy Spirit is not a person, how then can we sin against Him?

How can the worst possible sin, the unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit be so serious if he is not a person?

How can the Bible quote the Holy Spirit directly speaking is he is not a person?

If the Holy Spirit is not a person, how can he teach us, lead us, comfort us, guide us, and even intercede and pray for us?

How can the Holy Spirit know the mind of God if he is not a person?

Why did the earliest of Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene) believe he was a person? (Some of these early Church Fathers were the direct disciples of the Apostles John and Paul. Some were the first disciples of these direct disciples.)

Even though the Bible does not use the term "Trinity," it does not condemn it either. The term is an admitted functional term used to describe an observation. It is much like the functional term of Theocracy, which is never discussed in the Bible either. In fact, a number of Christian terms are not found in the Bible, but come to us through tradition, which the Bible does approve as Apostolic tradition.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Maybe some others will join in and express their thoughts as well. I also hope that I will get some more responses to my survey.

Thanks, Jim Whitney

Short Survey for Non-Trinitarians

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