I think I did it!

by freeman 51 Replies latest jw friends

lauralisa

I think an important point to make here is a particular "spin" put on the practice of shunning by the borg, making it more palatable to the majority. If I remember correctly, the desired affect of disfellowshipping is to "shame" the unrepentent person, making them realize what a horrible mistake they've made, and expediting their return to the ... uh... yeah. They use 2 Thess 3:13-15:
"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. But if anyone is not obedient to our word, through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."
The above scriptural admonition should be taken into their reasoning, but I've never seen it applied, ever. (I'm not a jw long-timer... eleven years active, one year out.)
I remember this "compassionate and loving" justification being given to me when a person I thought very highly of was just, well, axed, suddenly, in a minute.... gone........ of course, no explanation was given.. I was told I couldn't even look at her face in the bathroom mirror. It was excruciatingly difficult, and I found that I couldn't comply. I was simply NOT WILLING to pretend that this person, with whom I was sharing a public bathroom and standing two feet away from, did not exist. She eventually stopped coming to meetings altogether.
I think the true reason they push this extermination procedure is to instill fear and loathing into the remaining members of the congregation; it has been discussed well on other threads already, but it serves their purposes well in that the exterminatee becomes taboo.... it minimizes the possibility of someone actually being able to make an "informed" decision as to what this person did/does/thinks/said/didn't say/ .
Cases of unrepentent fornicators are well no-brainers. (I am one now, and I don't expect anyone there to just disregard their iron-clad policy on that one.) But there are other extremely dubious disfellowshipping incidents where people are df'd simply for matters of conscience. Since no explanation is given, everyone in the rank and file just assumes they are sexual deviants, or something tantamount to it. By making this "NO CONTACT" rule, their precious little non-thinking sheep are not subjected to exposure to some REALLY IMPORTANT MATTERS, like stuff we talk about here on this db....
"Balance".... the often referred-to word....... unless it upsets the balance out of their favor
Ick. I'm going to go get an adult beverage now, and later, I'm going to commit lots of fornication.
Gopher

Wiz,
You're in denial. You seem to want to deny some very simple ideas and definitions in your response. (example, you denied that "wicked" and "bad" necessarily equate to evil. Of course, such denial is only made for argument's sake, it seems.) The JW form of shunning is harsh, unloving, and goes against what is natural.
The scriptures I quoted about "removing the WICKED one" --- I was quoting the JW's who were quoting the Bible. JW's enforce the words in their literature as much or more than the words of the Bible, I'm sure you'd even agree. They agree with this scripture above, sice they use it as proof that what they do is right. So in essesnce it IS the JW's who themselves say that disfellowshipped ones (and by implication disassociated ones) are WICKED. They quote scriptures that imply that, I am quoting them quoting those scriptures.
And what else can WICKED and BAD mean but EVIL? Let's not split hairs here.
Finally, about what Christ said, that HE would cause a division. It's really up to HIM to do the dividing. The JW's have gone beyond what Jesus himself said, "let such a one (a non-repentant sinner) be to you as a tax collector and as a man of the nations". Did he say TREAT THE WRONGDOER WORSE than those of the nations? No.
Really what JW's do in their disfellowshipping has its roots more in ancient Hebrew religion than it does in Christianity. By their mode of disfellowshipping, it's the moral equivalent of taking an individual and stoning them to death outside the city gate. The Watchtower has even made that comparison, even lamenting the fact that they cannot currently kill such wrongdoers because it would not be lawful in today's world!
How different than Christianity, that treats each individual with compassion down to the very end. Instead of helping such individuals with a long term program of sheperding (or pastoral care, as some churches call it) JW's kick the person to the curb. They've decided he's unworthy of any association and also unworthy of help, even if he brought the case to the attention of the elders in the first place! Even that is not enough, to some elder judges, to show that there is some room for mercy.
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Tatiana

Wiz, it certainly DOES mean they will have nothing to do with the grandkids. This was my mom's explanation...."I don't want to get too close to them because it would be too hard when Armaggedon comes. Knowing they will die." What kind of warped love is that?
I haven't seen my mother in 7 years except for my sister's funeral. I have a 9 year old son who doesn't remember her at all and asks IF he has a grandmother. He was only 2 when she last saw him.
Yet she has the nerve to send me a photo of her doing her missionary work in Ecuador. Standing with a little boy, hugging him. It was like she was slapping me in the face with it. "This could be Dominic if only you'd stayed in the 'truth'."
I tore it into a hundred pieces.
April
"Love never dies." Voivodul Vlad Draculea (from Bram Stoker's Dracula-1992)
freeman

Some have asked that I reproduce the letter I sent to the elder.
It’s a bit long, but, here it is, enjoy:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 2001 by: [my name]
All rights reserved. No portion of this document
may be reproduced, electronically stored, or transmitted via facsimile or any other
method without written permission by the author.
The point of this writing is to demonstrate by way of scripture that the Watchtower Society's current shunning doctrine and practices do not adhere to the Bible and this is why I am at odds with this practice of shunning.
The primary scripture for consideration is:
But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.--1.Cor. 5:11 (NWT)
The text is clear that a person with whom the congregation should not mix company is one who is:
1) "called a brother" (that is, one who professes to be a member of the congregation); and
2) practicing fornication, greed, idolotry, reviling (insulting), habitual drunkeness, and/or extortion (theft).
The scripture mentions only these serious wrongdoings, however, Jehovah's Witnesses do disfellowship and shun people for the following reasons:
No longer claiming to be called a brother/sister.
Independent study and discussion of the Bible that brings Watchtower doctrine into question.
Possession of literature written by former members.
Having lunch, dinner etc. with a former member, even if the former member professes to be a Christian and was not disfellowshipped for fornication, greed, idolotry, reviling, drunkeness, or extortion as the above scripture outlines.
Authorizing for a minor in one’s care or one’s self a blood transfusion, provided the components of this transfusion are not on the approved list of minor components.
And numerous other actions never mentioned in scripture, but deemed by the congregation elders to be "unclean conduct," or "conduct unbecoming" of a Jehovah's Witness, smoking is such an example. Therefore "conduct" in this case covers a very broad range of actions not defined by scripture and thus leaving it to the discretion of the congregation's elders. As a result, standards by which people may be disfellowshiped are inconsistent.
Now consider this portion of the scripture sited below:
"Not to be mixing in company with" . . . "not even eating with . . ."
Here it is important to learn the customs of association for worship practiced by first-century Jews and Christians, bearing in mind that Jesus and the apostles were Jews. They lived according to the Jewish lifestyle and customs of their day. Jesus taught in the synogogues; hence, he was called "Rabbi." Matt.26:25; 26:49; Mark 9:5; 11:21; 14:25; John 1:38, 49; 3:2, 26; 4:31; 6:25; 9:2; 11:8
There were two kinds of association for religious worship:
1) public meetings, such as at the temple and in synogogues, which anyone was allowed to attend; and
2) private gatherings of the different sects.
Christians and Jews participated in both. Christians, met in private homes, usually over a special meal with prayer. A presiding minister hosted the meal using either fellowship funds or personal funds. (Acts 20:20; see the footnote in older editions of the NWT)
Christians were instructed to "greet" one another with a kiss. (Rom.16:16; 1.Cor.16:20; 2Cor.13:12; Ti.3:15; 1Pet.5:14) When Paul sent his "greetings" in a letter to the Christians in Thessalonica, he requested that the "brothers" be greeted by a "holy kiss" on his behalf. (1Thess.5:26)
If you recall, it was by this sign that Judas betrayed Jesus. (Luke 22:47,48)
Clearly, Paul did instruct Christians to expel from the congregation's fellowship any person who was purposely practicing willful sin. The disassociation would quite naturally exclude them from being greeted by the identifying "holy kiss," as well as not being allowed to share in meetings and the meals for Christian worship and prayer. However, Paul's instruction did not prohibit normal conversation or witnessing to former members. Nor were they barred from attending worship in the temple or the synagogues. Jesus, the apostles and Paul, along with the rest of the Jews, worshipped God both publicly in the temple and synagogues, and privately with small groups in various homes. (Acts 5:42) It was from the private Christian fellowship for worship that sinners were excluded.
Now what of 2 John 10,11?
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.--2 John 11 (NWT)
FACT: The above scripture is not about people who have been expelled from the Christian congregation. When read in context, it is about anyone who "does not bring this teaching" [of the Christ]. Because they held congregation meetings in their homes (which might be little more than a dug-out or tent outside the city walls of Jerusalem), in their culture their neighbors might view inviting a non-Christian into the home as the Christian sharing worship with non-Christians
Jehovah's Witnesses, while shunning disfellowshipped or disassociated persons, do not prohibit them from attending the congregation meetings at their Kingdom Halls. Yet the congregation was specifically where Paul instructed Christians not be be "mixing in company with" disfellowshipped sinners.
If the scripture at 2 John 10 were observed literally by Jehovah's Witnesses, they would be obliged to never invite anyone other than a Jehovah's Witness in good standing into their home, or ever speak a greeting to anyone other than a Jehovah's Witness. Does this make sense?
How did Jesus say one expelled from congregation should be treated?
Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations ['Gentile' in some translations] and as a tax collector.--Matt.18:15-17 (NWT)
The instruction was to bring up the matter of sin first between the two individuals alone. Then, if the sinner would repent, there was no need to carry the matter further. If the sinner was not repentant, then one or two others should be sought for witnesses. If the sinner remained unrepentant, only then, as a last resort, should it BE BROUGHT BEFORE THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION and not privately with the "elders as is now the practice.
If, after all that, the person still would not listen, he should then be treated the same as Gentiles and tax collectors. In other words, Christians were to treat former members just like anyone else who was not a member of the congregation. To be treated like a "man of the nations" (which is to say, a Gentile or foreigner). This is far removed from being shunned. Jewish people worked with, associated with, transacted business with, and preached to Gentiles. As for "tax collectors," Jesus ate and associated with them. Matthew was a tax collector. Tax collectors were not popular, but they were not shunned.
Note the example Jesus presents us with: "Next, while passing along from there, Jesus caught sight of a man named Matthew seated at the tax office, and he said to him: "Be my follower." Thereupon he did rise up and follow him. Later, while he was reclining at the table in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began reclining with Jesus and his disciples. But on seeing this the Pharisees began to say to his disciples: "Why is it that your teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?"
Hearing [them], he said: "Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. Go, then, and learn what this means, 'I want mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners."---Matt 9:9-13 NWT
Conclusion
There is no basis in scripture for mandating that Christians must totally shun former members (that is, to have no communication or conversation with them). The instruction is very clear to expel them from the congregation to keep it clean but to treat them like anyone else who is not a member. To go beyond what the scriptures teach, no matter how well intentioned is simply wrong!
I believe I have adequately demonstrated by way of scripture that the Watchtower Society's current shunning doctrine and practices do not adhere to the Bible and the example of Christ, and therefore that is why I myself will not adhere to this practice. I truly believe this is a destructive and divisive policy and practice. Further I will not let children under my care be improperly influenced by what I consider an abhorred and un-Christian practice and therefore I will denounce this practice both publicly and privately as necessary for their protection.
freeman
thewiz

It's apparent that people here are going to believe what they want.
If the WTBS makes a stand on something, it's seems just about everyone on these forums will take the opposite view. No matter what it is.
I got my big differences with the WTBS too -the cross, the faithful slave, field service and counting time, education.
The question was, that it was morally wrong to seperate families. I simple presented a case where Jesus said that it wasn't MT 10:34.
What kind of love is it when you tear your mother's picture? That sounds warped to me. Instead of telling your kid your mother was away and lived in another country, you decided to teach your kid by your actions how to respond -in kind. Did you rant-and-rave about your mother in front of the child? Do you sit at the dinner table and talk about everything is wrong with her? You can do positive things or negative things. Those things only hurt you and yours, not your mother.
The actions you take are independent from her.
I carry an extreme amount of anger and rage and I know from what little reading I've done with books on sociology, psyhchiatry, Dr's, 12 steps programs, etc. that it is not helpful. You are only hurting yourself and not anything outside yourself. This has nothing to do with the JWs or the WTBS. It's just good sound practical advice.
Again Gopher. You quoted scriptures from the BIBLE, if you want to deny what it says, you can. No one is stopping you. Throw the bible out the window if you don't like what it says.
EVIL BAD WICKED all have different weights of degree. Same way the sinning and greiving the Holy Spirit have different levels.
Ever wonder why King Saul was hated by God, but David wasn't? Was God unjust to Saul? For one, Saul, instead of doing the right thing always sought out the wrongf advice and went in the opposite direction than what he knew he should have. He went from bad to worse. David always realized the error of his ways and repented. When he was presented with the error of his ways he was cut to the heart. Did others pay for his mistakes. They sure did.
Like I said about these forums, many of the people here are simply looking for a pat on the back and agreement. The WTBS believe in conformity and so do many of these forums. People who disagree are ALWAYS attacked. These forums have just replaced the WTBS with something else.
I heard a talk from Dan Sydlik a long time ago. He said, "how can you encourage a DF person? By being kind to them." In the Hall I used to go to in RI, the people there were helping a DF women with her children. Does that sound like ignoring her too you?
I'm sure there will be many who criticise me all over again.
Tatiana

Wiz, I have been reading your posts for a while and think you jump to conclusions very often without having all the facts. You just assume the worst without knowing the entire story.
My children NEVER saw the photo of my mother and the little boy, because it would have hurt them. And I have never said anything derogatory about her in front of my children. Even when she only lived A MILE AWAY and never came to see them!!!!!!!!!
I lived in a place I hated for years so I could be close to her and maybe, just maybe, be able to change her mind about shunning my children. That was wasted time on my part.
You don't know the history of my mother, who was and is a very violent, abusive parent. Both physically and mentally. She is the reason my only sister killed herself at 38. AM I angry? You damn right! Do I show it in front of my kids? No. I am the exact opposite of my mother. I do NOT rant and rave and curse in front of my children like she did.
My anger comes from the hypocrisy of a woman who can act so loving in front of and with "worldly" people, and take pictures with children she doesn't even know, and not even care about her own flesh and blood. If this is what's supposed to make me "feel ashamed" and return to the flock, thanks but no thanks.
April
"Love never dies." Voivodul Vlad Draculea (from Bram Stoker's Dracula-1992)
borgfree

the wiz,
I think most, if not all of us on this board, love Jehovah's Witnesses. That is why most of us spend so much time trying to open their eyes to the truth.
Speaking for myself, I despise the Watchtower Society, why?
They are the real apostates, they deny the God of the bible and have made a new god for themselves to worship.
They are false prophets. They have prophesied falsely over all of the years of their existence. Check it out.
They blaspheme the True God. They claim to be Gods only channel of communication to mankind. They have lied, prophesied falsely, slandered God and men, they practice hatred, etc., etc.
They have, by their "divine rulings" caused uncountable deaths, injuries, and lifelong disabilities, etc., etc.
The WT is either what they claim to be or they are not. By their own history and their own paper trail they have plainly shown that they are not what they claim to be.
What then is our obligation concerning the Watchtower Society? Should we love it or hate it? We must all decide for ourselves. I have chosen the latter. I cannot feel good about such an organization that does so much harm to people by separating families and all of the other harmful things they practice. AND..when They are CAUGHT they blame GOD for THEIR wrongs. Detestable!!
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
Gopher

Wiz,
I know you're trying to answer multiple people/multiple posts and it can get a little hectic. But PLEASE don't make the mistake of painting everyone in here with the same brush. There is no real conformmity expected here, only that people be REAL about their feelings and present a reasonable argument for them. I see wide diversity of opinions among posters here, and I find that stimulating. I include your views among that 'welcome' diversity. JW's may have a 'persecution complex' to some extent, I would expect better from you because you've been absent from their meetings for 2 years, you said. I'm not here to attack you. I'm going after IDEAS here.
You actually attacked me by using a generality, "throw the Bible out the window if you want...". I'm not interested in throwing the Bible out the window, Wiz. What I am objecting to is what I perceive to be a misapplication of certain scriptures to support an unjust and unloving practice, and that is the shunning of those who are weak or have doubts. Many who are shunned did not wish it to be so. They didn't disassociate themselves. Shunning is unnatural and hurtful. If you read the other posts on this thread, can't you FEEL the hurt this practice is inflicting? It inflicts 'collateral damage' as well onto grandchildren and onto innocent spouses. Try as you can, the WAY and the EXTENT that the WTS imposes shunning is beyond loving, beyond reasonable, and goes beyond Scripture. No, I don't want to throw out the Bible. I just want it to be reasonably applied.
BTW, I'm sure glad Dan Sydlik gives lip service about "kindness" to DF'd people. But that kindness is rare. Most of the ordinary JW's are motivated by FEAR to steer far clear of any DF'd or DA'd individual, no matter what the circumstance may be. This FEAR imposes a certain control over the congregation, which is as the WTS wishes it to be. This is unloving. Why? Read 1 John 4:18. "There is no fear in love. Perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. He that is under fear has not been made perfect in love." The WTS rule on shunning enforces FEAR and curtails LOVE. How Christian is that? I guess you can only know if you or someone you care about deeply has been the victim of this policy. Again, try to read the posts of people who have been its victims, feel their sadness and anguish. Jesus Christ feels it, as he looks down from his throne, I am quite sure!
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
borgfree

BTW Freeman,
I forgot to thank you for posting your letter. I think it has some very good points. I do not know if you want it used or not but with your permission I will print it and give it to JW family members (there is one or two who would accept it)Thanks again.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
LDH

Wiz,
There are some exceptions. When I was a teenager, there was a young lady early 20's who had moved into our cong. She had a newborn son and had just married her worldly boyfriend, the father of the baby. She was df'd when she came to our cong.
They were very poor and very young, and she didn't know anyone. Yet she was supposed to make it to all the meetings. You know what some of the elders told her? To get a taxi, that would show she wanted to put her money where her mouth was. When she protested that she didn't have enough money, they told her to 'set her priotities.'
My father, also an elder, took it upon himself to call on her and tell her we (our family) would be more than happy to pick her and her baby up for the meetings. She jumped at the offer. So I remember, for about six months, leaving the house one half hour early to pick Laura and Matthew up. (Going to the bookstudy was a two hour process, although we lived one block from the KH)
New York winters are cold. It wasn't just a matter of her jumping in the car and us speeding off. No, it required the fastening in of a child car seat, loading up book and diaper bags, and heading off to the hall. All the while, my family spoke lovingly to Matthew, but we didn't say schitt to his mom. When we dropped her back off at home, my dad would frequently ask if they had enough food for the family, and how her husband was doing.
She eventually got reinstated. ALL full credit to my father, who was more concerned about her than about rules.
I think you'll find that most of the people like myself who were df'd and then reinstated (me after only four months of being df'd) were treated worse than dirt.
Maybe you should think about the ramifications of making a huge mistake in your life and needing the support of your friends and having nothing and no one to turn to because you've alienated everyone else with your wierd freakin religion. Although I lived at home, there were other elders who pressured my father to KICK ME OUT OF THE HOUSE! and let me find my own way!
The cruelty is so far removed from the love that Jesus showed to sinners, it drives me crazy.
Lisa
I'm not perfect, just forgiven class

I think I did it!

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