by moanzy 44 Replies latest members private
I was hoping to hear your explanations, Poppers.
There is a depth and clarity, a rhythm felt in your words that is not found in the ones bellowed from here.
Yet, I understand how often times the more words are spoken in regards this, the less is said.
j
Damn, it's good to see you Essie.
j
I haven checked this thread in a while and it was dead when I posted on it, I'm glad I brought it back to life.
Moanzy, I hope you do get the time to read some of what I've posted, I'm not saying science has all the answers, but it certainly has dispelled a lot of myths. Obviously I have a biased point of view as I am majoring in the subject and study it everyday, but I think science has come a lot futher than you might think on the subject. If God used evolution to create the universe and man, ie man shared a common ancestor with apes, then whats the deal with origional sin? The whole book of Genesis is basic shot. If complex design alone is enough for one to reason that there must be a creator, because design requires a creator, then who created the creator? This is a question that if you are trying to anaylize the situation scientificly you can't ignore.
There must have been a starting point with no 'God' somewhere, the only question is where and what is 'God' and does 'God' really have any intelligence?
OK JT, you've appealed to my vanity, so here goes:
"It seems that we all categorize our experiences as either good or bad."
Yes, this is what happens all the time, and this is the seed of how and why we fail to find fulfillment, happiness, and peace. What we fail to examine, because it never even occurs to us to do so, is this "me" who seems to be making these judgments. Our attention is so accustomed to being directed outward that it never even crosses our minds to direct it inward. One way of doing that is to ask, "What am I, really?" and then sincerely look for this "me" that we take ourselves to be. We assume without question that we are who we think we are, but this assumption only addresses the most superficial level of what we are. There is something more basic that lies beneath this assumption, and that is what every idea of "me" arises within, and that's consciousness itself. Asking "What am I, really?" is a step in discovering one's true essence that lies beneath the ever changing images and ideas we have of "self". It is a step in redirecting awareness/consciousness back onto itself.
"Apparently we must strive to experience without judging the experience,"
This would seem so, but only on the surface of things. Nonjudgment is a defining feature of your true nature - you, what you really are, never ever judges anything. It literally can't. However, it is the conceptual self that hears about "not judging" and makes attempts at nonjudgment and usually fails miserably, and then condemns itself for its failure. Can you see the irony here? This is what egos (the sense of self) do all the time. They hear about this or that thing that they "should or should not do" and then goes out and tries to make it so, tries to reshape itself into someone else's idea of how things should be. And these ideas get cemented into place so that life becomes driven by unexamined assumptions. Or our ideas fail and we search for other ideas of how things/we should be - so we're either living by unconsious or unexamined assumptions, or are constantly striving and searching to be something or other.
But what if we live our life without ideas, without attempts to make things go this way or that? Doing this is a huge step, a step which usually shakes us up in every imaginable way, but it is a step which leads to true and lasting peace and happiness. By looking for this "me" we take ourselves to be we find what we really are, the pure and nonchanging consciousness in which every idea arises. It is a truly courageous step to take because in the end we have to abandon every idea we've ever held about "self" and "other".
"but I don't know a single human that does do that."
Yup, not too many of those. But this statement betrays yet another assumption: That we are simply humans. Our outer expression is that of "human", and this expression displays all of the flaws that we are familiar with. But to limit what we are to "human" is to miss the more fundamental truth: That we are human beings. It is this BEING that is to be investigated, and it is this BEING which holds the answers for all of that which we seek. We've heard the phrase "human being" countless times, but just what is this being anyway? This "being" is temporarily being expressed in "human" form and we are familiar with the "human" part; now it's time to refamiliarize ourselves with the "being" part.
"If all we do is experience life with no judgement then we would have harmony in ourselves, but it is painfully difficult to be around people."
Can you anticipate my response to this yet? What if what you thought yourself to be was different? Could you then find it easier to be around people? Different people react to the same situation in different ways BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY THINK. Each person builds and sustains an image, an idea of who they think they are, and it is this mental image that resists or accepts what's happening around them. But what if they held no ideas of self at all? What would "you" be then? This is what Eckhart Tolle is pointing to, the discovery of what you really are beyond the images we carry around in our heads.
"Aside from being a hermit I don't understand how to achieve harmony and still live in this world. In other words how do I integrate the knowlege I have now gained from research into my everyday life."
The beauty of dis-covering or re-membering what you really are is that life takes care of itself. Without an ego entity sticking its nose in and trying to reshape or change what is unfolding before it, life simply flows unobstructed and with spontaneity. What you really are is pregnant with all possibilities, is intelligence itself - it does what needs to be done in the ever present moment of now. Living life free of ego reveals the wholeness of creation - that we are wholeness itself, never separate from anything.
The bottom line of "what to do now?" is to learn the "how" of not doing anything. More accurate is to say learn to recognize how your sense of self/ego attempts to have things its way; how ego resists what is. In the moment of recognizing egoic strategies of control a "space" opens up - there is the "seeing" of the ego trying to control events by consciousness itself. In other words, ego no longer is operating unconsciously and automatically, but is illuminated by consciousness/You. At this point a choice is presented: Allow the ego to drop away altogether, or to give control back to the ego. In the letting go of ego, freedom and peace follow.
poppers
I believe that sometimes we get bogged down with trying to know and understand life.. and god.. when maybe the answer is really ..the exploration of life and god. within us...From the beginning of history,, people have travelled to find new worlds.. Men built airplanes to travel faster and farther and then began reaching out to explore the moon and the planets and further into the universe..Maybe we are really not meant to fully understand as we are always evolving..I believe there is a scientific explanation for everything..I don't believe in an allpowerful god..I think we all have a godlike spirit in us.. by that I mean.. we are responsible for how we live our lives and what we get out of it...
Lilybird and fleur--thanks for your support!!!!
James Thomas---Thanks also for your time and wisdom. You have given me so much to consider.
Poppers---Ok Ego is a problem. Could that be why I get so frustrated with people? (rhetorical)
SickofLies--- Good for you majoring in the sciences. Yes I have the same question about God and where he started. The Genesis account I personally think is just a story.
Narkissos--- Yes I guess life could be like a game if I allow myself to laugh at it. It may be a lot of fun!!!! I've noticed my friends, my husband and his family have totally lived by the rule of fun or its not worth it. They can't understand my driving need for truth and i can't understand how they go through life never really questioning. And yet they really really enjoy themselves and life.
Me on the other hand, can't imagine just enjoying the ride of life. If I can finally get to the point where I can laugh at life, what about the tragedies growing up?
They weren't fun! I very definately could have died. My life was devoid of much positive experiences. I don't think I can find humour in that whole mess. And on top of that my family has been split apart to the point that I may never see some of my family alive again. (sister has disappeared). I have lots to be thankful for now and feel happy about these things, but my past still looms large in my life.
I am interested to hear how you would look at tragedy in a new light. I think if I could find a new way of looking at my experiences that I would find humour in my life. Right now it still seems like the watchtower has been sticking it's ugly claws into a shattered family for so long and is so heartless it won't even recognize the beast it has become. (sorry, I really hate that cult!!!)
Moanzy
when reading your post , I remembered my initial feelings when I discovered the answers that I had when I was a witness were flawed.
unsettled
disturbed
After some time had passed, I realized I had always had these feelings in some measure, because in my heart , the answers I had never felt right. But they were answers . And the many questions that came up in my mind that could not be answered, (waiting on Jehovah didn't cut it ) would only increase the intensity of those feelings.
so this is what I think, that questions as a witness are disturbing because they often involve doubt . And doubt , as we know is the enemy of faith. And without faith, we're told, we're doomed.
what I've come to realize is that questions shouldn't be feared. in fact it's possible to enjoy them and all the possible answers . All those possibilities that you never considered before have made possible a lifetime of learning . And not repetitive answers by rote, but answers that are subject to your review, to be accepted ,held for the time being , or discarded , it's up to you .
Here is another thought maybe you can take those kids to see one of the dinosaur sites in Alberta (OK maybe the kids would find it boring but I would be interested )
Moanzy,
They can't understand my driving need for truth and i can't understand how they go through life never really questioning.
Do I hear you. But imo neither they nor you have any choice. Even if you do learn to laugh at your particular "ego-construct" and break free from it to an extent, you cannot trade it for another. You're bound, at least, to watch the particular action and fate of this particular player character in the game, until it bows out. Your secret freedom meanwhile being in the verb "to watch".
Tragedy, like comedy, is theatre. We are both actors and spectators. Switching positions countless times, gradually (and partially) learning to watch as we play and play as we watch.
What is done is done, but its meaning depends on the next acts and scenes which we are writing along with others as we play. Tragedy will turn into comedy and into tragedy again. In the end it doesn't matter which character or which scene we play. But from my own experience "serious truth-seeker" is not a bad role, and it gets comical more often than we think.
There's a great saying I've always admired:
"Respect the people that are searching for the truth;
Beware the ones who claim to have found it" - SickofLies
I feel that the constant search for something else is just a desperate feeling that this life CANT BE IT!!
Life is very short, and when it's done, I think it's done. Maybe you need to spend less time on your search for the elusive truth, and more time enjoying every single second and breath.
At the memorial it did hit me that people are there because they are afraid not to be. This great 'spiritual' need that the WT keeps preaching about is actually just a hole in your life that needs filling.
I'm not sure what I believe any more, but actually that's kind of comforting. I haven't yet gone all the way back to evolution.. still doesn't quite add up for me, but neither does my life depend on me understanding it all.
All I'm sure about, is if there was ever a creator, he doesn't particularly care about mankind. Therefore I dont particularly care about knowing him / her or it.
Poppy
