Did Jehovah destroy millions with a flood in Noah's day?

by fish 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Well, fish - I had another look at those stats after you replied and no, I don't have any proof of the numbers. Maybe I am a little off on the "true believer got to have literal flood" class - probably too high.

    However, consider this: I seldom see a really contraversial subject come up without the full range of opinions coming forth. So, there have to be at least a few from each persuasion. Would you permit me to back up a little and ask for some background - i.e. exJW, still in, just curious? What were your issues particularly with the flood?

    I think I see that this was posting 1-3 of 1-3 for you today. Is "flood" really such a hot topic that nothing else comes ahead of it? After all, if the issue is whether to be or not to be in the JW mindset - then there is literally a full spectrum of other churches and philosophies that let you believe it, doubt it, reject it, (the flood I mean) or whatever.

    My point here is - considering all the unusual & really bizarre belief structures that the WT would hold as doctrine - this one is not really that far away from most of the evangelical protestant churches out there.

    I guess that I am quite intrigued that you picked this one to open here with - but it sure is a fun subject for me. I think I am really more interested in the "morality" aspects of this subject than the "science" issues which are coming out on this thread - but post on and let us hear more from yourself on the subject!

    James

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    We do not know how many ppl lived back then in Noah's days whatever is said is a matter of pure speculation and it's unlikely that they used to live for centuries. The flood was most likely a local event rather than global.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    james_woods You really like putting words in peoples mouths don't you!

    Deputy Dog - if God's primary purpose is to make people die,

    I never said anything of the sort. My point is merely that God controls everyone's life and death. It looks to me like you wasted a few of your heart beats putting words in my mouth.

    After all, people have been dying just fine now for millions of years and no one living today has seen him do a mass annhilation.

    Really? Hum. I see people dying every day! Average about 153 thousand a day! The mortality rate has been consistently hovering around .883% for the past several years. Therefore, barring a major worldwide calamity (such as another world war) we can expect a similar mortality rate for this coming year. On average, 1.78 people die every second. Based on this rate, here is how the numbers add up.

    1.78 per second
    107 per minute
    6390 per hour
    153 thousand per day
    56.0 million per year
    3.9 billion per average lifetime (70 years)

    from http://www.biblehelp.org/mortality.htm I wonder if you will be able to add any time to your life? Tic Tic Tic Tic Tic Tic ... Personally, I'm very comforted knowing God has my days numbered. D Dog

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Many of us old timers laugh our ass off at the lot of you

    Yes, we know mr kim, it's called DEMENTIA, it often happens to folks like yourself living in trailer parks, subsisting on kraft dinner and coors light.

    Why dont you prove your points with EVIDENCE and DATA instead of talking out of your ass as per usual? Funny we always know when you are around !!

    Just look for the "yellow posts" and we know mr. kim has been pissing on the board again with his psycho-bible rants !!! LOL

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    Mr. Kim...

    Wow...you are crazy...

    You seem to revel in the idea, but I cant imagine that anyone is offended by a single thing that you said. You just dont make any sense. Your post, for all its highlighting and bold text, really didnt say anything.

    All people want is for you to clarify your position, and backup the claims that you made. You clearly are not willing to do that. Instead, you just log back on and tell people that they need to get real life experience, that you will just have some fun, and that some of us "might learn." Well, teach us!!! Prove you arent the nutjob it sounds like you are...

    You made some posts about the flood. Everyone seemed to disagree with you. When you were challenged you ran from the notion of having to support your statements and have now assumed a position in your own mind where you can just look down on others and sneer/laugh at them. Hey, now that I think about it, maybe the Governing Body is hiring!! Go get 'em big guy!!

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    This post was deleted for your benefit.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Mr Kim,

    Its a fact that your a troll.

    steve

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    Deputy Dog,

    Not to interject myself into your conversation...but I guess just had a thought to share. You made this statement that, reading from the bible, I would have to disagree with..."my point is that God merely controls everyone's life and death." I personally do not put much stock in the bible, but as a basis for anticipating how God interacts with us, it is probably the only common ground that you and I have...

    That being said, how would you explain God and his relationship with Abraham, and how God chose to see if Abraham would be willing to sacrifice his son? According to the bible, God waited until the last possible second, and then stopped Abraham, just as he was about to kill Isaac. God then said that only at that time could he be sure that Abraham would or would not sacrifice his son. In other words, God had to wait and see how Abraham would control his son's fate. That, in my mind, is not the behavior of a God that "controls everyone's life and death."

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    Mr. Kim,

    I would gladly be considered "irate" as opposed to a "lunatic". You clearly have no interest in backing up your own statements. I personally consider this ironic. The goal of everyone on this board so far seems to be to at least help others somewhat. You clearly have no interest in this at all, or you would at least try and back up one of the things that you have said. Instead, you just want to act like we are all too dumb to get what you have said, or that we should somehow be learning it via osmosis, which is pathetic because I doubt that have ever learned in this manner...

    Good luck on your bet.

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    howdy Fish,

    welcome to the forum. I am going to take a different approach then the rest of the posters here - one that avoids the actual Flood debate. (Being such an obviously fascinating and important subject you can find a ton of info on the Net regarding that topic.)

    My approach concentrates instead on how we should view "references" and allusions by persons in the Bible.

    Very simply, when someone, for example Jesus, refers to another person he may be citing (accepted) history, he may be citing legend or recalling myth, he may simply be telling a story with a moral dimension (a parable) or point to it.

    So my first question I would like to ask you why you say that "Jesus seems to have believed" in the Noachian flood?

    Perhaps you had in mind this passage:

    (Matthew 24:36-42) 36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

    JWs (and maybe other Christians) understand that Jesus is here indicating a real belief in Noah and historical facts. However, as you an see, there is an alternate understanding and that is arrived at by simply asking why was Jesus referring to Noah in the first place?

    Was it to indicate his belief in Noah? No. Was it to prove that Noah existed? No.

    In fact Jesus is making a point about urgency and about not being caught up in the affairs of daily life to the extent that we (or rather his audience at the time) fail to appreciate the warning signs of the impending critical times (or destruction). [As the traditional explanation goes.]

    But now comes the second question, would his point be just as effective and clear to his audience if the story of Noah were commonly known by his audience? The answer to that question is yes.

    The audience understood that Jesus was making the above point about urgency and focus and not saying anything factually about Noah himself.

    The example I usually give to people when I am discussing this point is that of the Good Samaritan.

    If I tell you or anyone today, that they should help their neighbor like the Good Samaritan, if my audience/receiver knows the story (and they usually do) then they get the point. Now if I am quoted by a newspaper article referring to the Good Samaritan and it is 2000 or so years later after the story was originally told by Jesus is anyone going to believe that this means that I actually believe that there was an actual Good Samaritan as the story was told by Jesus.

    I think few would believe that. And what would be the facts? Was there an actual Good Samaritan? Maybe, but most probably not. Jesus seems to have been obviously illustrating a point about who is our neighbor.

    And incidently, this same situation can be applied to stories which we know either to be legends or even to known fabrications. "Hey kid, tell the truth like Washington did about chopping down the apple tree," etc.

    So the point is this. The Noachian Flood was a very well known story of the Jewish heritage and history. Probably few Jews actually believed that the story was true. But because it was so well-known Jesus could make a reference to it, in order to drive home the point he was making.

    However, for us today, looking at this passage and others like it in the bible we must understand that when he or the apostles or anyone, simply reference such stories it does not indicate in any way that they or their audience actually accepted the underlying facts or the truth of what is referenced as fact.

    -Eduardo

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