The Bible - God's Word or Man's?

by SickofLies 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    Well, Rocky Balboa wasn't supposed to beat Drago the Russian boxer ... but he did. Israel's possession of any modern weaponry along with their zeal and ability to use what they had, even against better (only in part) technology poorly applied made the difference. The Jews were more motivated than their opponents and deployed technology they had in a more efficient way. Having the US watching their back in any way was a big factor, regardless of other events. And all of this still doesn't advance in any way that the bible is a letter written by god and not the creation of primitive, late Bronze Age goat farmers later shaped and re-shaped by a bunch of people with their own agenda and the benefit of hindsight.

    Israel was recently reborn in the middle of the last century. The Jews spent hundreds of years living in foreign lands. It was written in the bible long before the recreation of Israel that it would be in existence in the last days. This is just one many of the prophecies of the bible that has came true. Are you going to make the arguement someone went back and made changes to the scriptures after 1950?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Israel was recently reborn in the middle of the last century. The Jews spent hundreds of years living in foreign lands. It was written in the bible long before the recreation of Israel that it would be in existence in the last days. This is just one many of the prophecies of the bible that has came true. Are you going to make the arguement someone went back and made changes to the scriptures after 1950?

    LOL. Or...exilic and post-exilic writers simply had hopes for a restitution of the kingdom that was brought to an end by the Gentiles in 587 BC (which is perfectly understandable.... Americans would also hope for a restoration of the USA if it becomes destroyed by a foreign power, for instance) and it has taken, oh, about two thousand five hundred years for some of those hopes to finally see some realization through the ordinary course of history.

    Is there even the faintest hint that it would take so long in the OT prophets?

    It was written in the bible long before the recreation of Israel that it would be in existence in the last days. This is just one many of the prophecies of the bible that has came true.

    Circular argument. You look to the "recreation of Israel" itself as evidence that we are "in the last days". Yet the "fact" that we are "in the last days" is presumed by the claim that the prophecy has come true, for it wouldn't have "come true" if we are not "in the last days".

  • The Chuckler
    The Chuckler

    GiR
    "I will believe what I want to believe. I don't care about your skepticism. This is the land of the free. I made my opinion known according to the topic. If you have a problem with my belief and freedom of expression, maybe you should condsider relocating to China, They are more in line with your attitude and impatience towards alternative views."

    Did you actually read my post?

    I never passed comment on your belief. All I said was that you asserted that because of greater knowledge and experience you know better than the rest of the forum and I doubted that. Or did I hit a nerve regarding the "I'm only in it for me" jibe?

    There was also a rascist comment about the Chinese - and you accuse me of impatience and an inappropriate attitude?

    Luke 6:41,42 my Xian buddy.

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    I never passed comment on your belief. All I said was that you asserted that because of greater knowledge and experience you know better than the rest of the forum and I doubted that. Or did I hit a nerve regarding the "I'm only in it for me" jibe?

    You put words into my mouth. I really don't feel like defending a post your created in your own mind. "Greater knowlege" and 'better than mortals' not phrases that I typed. I simply said that I have had personal experiences in my life that leads me to believe that the bible is true. How did you take so much from so little that was said? Are you yourself some sort of psychic that can read minds?

    You are not acting any better than a religious cult that twist scriptures around for their own personal agenda.

    There was also a rascist comment about the Chinese - and you accuse me of impatience and an inappropriate attitude?
    Any rational person could see that my comments were reffering to China's political idealogies and not their race. You are intentionally trying to pass off lies as truth. You know full well my intended thoughts which I am transffering to other persons by the use of this messageboard. Debates where in which one party uses under handed tactics to make a point are useless and waste of time.
  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    LOL. Or...exilic and post-exilic writers simply had hopes for a restitution of the kingdom that was brought to an end by the Gentiles in 587 BC (which is perfectly understandable.... Americans would also hope for a restoration of the USA if it becomes destroyed by a foreign power, for instance) and it has taken, oh, about two thousand five hundred years for some of those hopes to finally see some realization through the ordinary course of history.

    LOL. Ordinary course of history? There is nothing ordinary about the 20th century. 2 world wars, collapse of all major empires, man lands on moon, invention of internet, etc. There was no other period in mankind history like the 20th century.

    The establishment of a jewish homeland in the land of their forefathers little under a 95 years ago was nothing more than a mere dream. Their land was one of many under the rule of the Muslim Ottoman Empire. Muslims all over the world viewed Israel as a holy land sacred to THEIR faith. The jews on the other hand, was a race dispersed in to various diffrent countries because of religious persecution. In the years before 1914 it would of seemed that the Jews had lost control of the land of their forefathers for good.

    However, God thru his prophets declared that He would bring His people from all of the lands in which they resided back to the place He promised to Abraham' seed.

    Is there even the faintest hint that it would take so long in the OT ;prophets

    Have you studied the book of Daniel? It's was very clear that other empires would emerge and rule over the land of Isreal after the fall of the Babyloniyan empire.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    LOL. Ordinary course of history? There is nothing ordinary about the 20th century. 2 world wars, collapse of all major empires, man lands on moon, invention of internet, etc. There was no other period in mankind history like the 20th century.

    There's nothing ordinary about any century, that is typical of history in general. Each century has its own inventions, achievements, wars, disasters, etc., and in every generation are those who believe that theirs is the last, but they have been proven wrong every time. There was nothing like the fourteenth century when one-third of Europe's population was wiped out. How about the sixteenth century when more of half of the Native American population was wiped out? Sure, the achievements of the 1800s or 1700s might be small potatoes compared to what we have today, but why presume that we are today at the pinnicle of history? What we do today will be small potatoes a century from now or more. I mean, we could be having this discussion in the year 2906 and be arguing about why the 30th century has to be the "time of the end", for the interplanetary wars of our time make WWI and WWII seem like ancient history. How can WWII stack up to, say, (let's presume for the sake of argument) the war of 2670 that wiped out the entire population of North America? Or how could our pitiful landings on the moon compare to manned exploration of nearest stars, with colonies in interstellar space? It's not hard to imagine that our time has a lot of history still left to go, without any "end" in sight. Rather, it is a presumption that this is the time of the "end".

    Read sometime old Watchtower publications from the 1870s-1920s and you will find the same thinking about the 19th century, about how it had such amazing inventions and wars and events....why was the "time of the end" thought to have begun in 1799? The Napoleonic wars seem quaint today, just as quaint as the steam boat, but all those events were still thought to be earth-shaking events that clearly marked this generation (i.e. the generation of the 1870s) as in the time of the end. There is a lesson to be learned in that.

    Have you studied the book of Daniel? It's was very clear that other empires would emerge and rule over the land of Isreal after the fall of the Babyloniyan empire.

    Of course. I have studied it extensively in the past year. The author clearly did not expect thousands of years to pass before the end (as ch. 9 and 11 rather dramatically show)....indeed, it designates the Maccabean crisis of the second century BC as the "time of the end". Only through later reinterpretation, much of it eisegetic and imposing concepts foreign to the book, such as applying the "year-day" principles (as Miller and Russell did), can it be stretched out to our day. Because Daniel has been the fodder of every eschatological prediction for centuries, it is so embedded with layers of successive interpretations that it will be quite difficult to discuss the author's intent without having those interpretive assumptions about the book interfering. Instead, I would just recommend you to read any good commentary on the book to understand what I mean.

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    Read sometime old Watchtower publications from the 1870s-1920s and you will find the same thinking about the 19th century, about how it had such amazing inventions and wars and events....why was the "time of the end" thought to have begun in 1799? The Napoleonic wars seem quaint today, just as quaint as the steam boat, but all those events were still thought to be earth-shaking events that clearly marked this generation (i.e. the generation of the 1870s) as in the time of the end. There is a lesson to be learned in that.

    You are mistaken if you think I believe that we are living in the last days. It's a possiblity, but I believe what Jesus said about no one knows except God when the end will come. I should have explained this to you in an earlier post. Here I go.

    I believe Isreal existence is a requirement for the end to come, but that does not mean I believe we are living in the very last days RIGHT NOW. I am well aware of Jehovah Witnesses failed prophecies and failed prophecies from other groups over the centuries. Failed prophecies are the results of wishful thinking and a lack of understanding of how to study the bible properly. There are many conditions which must be met first in order for the end to come. Such groups as Jehovah Witness twist and bend scriptures out of context and are to blame for their OWN failed prophecy. There is nothing in the bible that hints at an exact end of the world date and if it did, it would have been contradicting itself. A lot of groups read information into bible that's just not there while ignoring other scriptures at the same time.

    There is NO WAY the end of the world could have came without Israel being reborn first. Secondly, the teaching of Jesus have to be known through out the whole earth before the end comes. Which is another reason God waited thousands of years to fufill His promise to revive Israel as a nation. people who claimed that the end of world was coming before these conditions were met were not studing the Bible as they should have been. The teachings of Christ was not known all over the world until recently or last century or so. The Japanese for instance didn't allow foreigners to explore their country until the later part of the 19th century.

    Personally, I believe a powerful empire will rise in the middle east. People every where will become very gross in their sins, and serious persercution of Christians forcing them to worship God in secret will occur before the end comes.

    So why did people believe that they were living close to the end of the world for the last 2000 years? Could it be they were being misled by Satan?

    Of course. I have studied it extensively in the past year. The author clearly did not expect thousands of years to pass before the end (as ch. 9 and 11 rather dramatically show)....indeed, it designates the Maccabean crisis of the second century BC as the "time of the end". Only through later reinterpretation, much of it eisegetic and imposing concepts foreign to the book, such as applying the "year-day" principles (as Miller and Russell did), can it be stretched out to our day. Because Daniel has been the fodder of every eschatological prediction for centuries, it is so embedded with layers of successive interpretations that it will be quite difficult to discuss the author's intent without having those interpretive assumptions about the book interfering. Instead, I would just recommend you to read any good commentary on the book to understand what I mean.

    Are you reffering to the 70 year period? That has nothing to do with time of the end? you have to look in the eariler chapters of the book. The dreams of the King of Babylon in which saw a huge image revealed by Daniel that at least 3 majors empires would rule after him. The Roman Empire lasted WAY past a thousand years after Neb had his dream from God. And the Ottoman Empire which ended the roman empire lasted right up into OUR own time. Daniel's prophecy showed that FOUR empires would rule in successive order until the time of the end.

    What is more John shown in the book of Revelations that one Power would arise after the Roman Empire in successive order. History shows us that this power was the Ottoman Empie. Now I can't emphasise this enough, John pointed out that the Roman Empire would fall someday.

    This is what Daniel really predicted: Babylon ----> Media/Persia ----> Greece/Rome------>Ottoman Empire--------> 10 kings? Did history follow this or what?

    Do you need me to explain this to you in detail. If you were formaly a Jehovah Witness like me and rest of this board, Then I know there is lot of false information in your head put there by the JWS concerning the beast images both John and Daniel saw.

    I am aware the borg falsely teaches that Egypt, Assyria, and the United States are included as being part of the beast that John saw. These nations have nothing to do with it.

    I think I said a enough for now. Explain everything to you in detail if you want me to.

  • Golf
    Golf

    OH, name me a man made organization that I should put my trust in.


    Golf

  • DelTheFunkyHomosapien
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    GodisRight....Thank you for explaining your beliefs in greater detail and clarifying some things. My position is that, again, your interpretation of Daniel and Revelation is a product of earlier reinterpretations of these books and do not represent what the original authors were talking about. That doesn't mean there isn't value in such a reading...it makes the books meaningful to you. But these readings do not arise from the texts themselves (or from situating them in their socio-historical/literary context), but arise from imposing other ideas and concepts (including the hindsight of history) onto the texts, including an arbitrary lumping together of kingdoms (such as "Greece" with "Rome") and ignoring of others (such as all the kingdoms that intervened between "Rome" and the "Ottoman Empire") to get the desired result in Daniel 2, or taking basileus in Revelation 17:11-12 to mean something other than "king". The Society does the same thing, just in a different way, like taking the whole section that applies to Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Daniel 11 and arbitrarily making it refer to random kings and queens in a 2,000-year period that stretches into the 20th century, and William Miller had other methods, such as interpreting the 2,300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8 as 2,300 days and then imposing a day/year rule to expand that into 2,300 years (ignoring, of course, what the oracle itself was talking about). Because futuristic readings of Daniel are based on mediating interpretations that supplant the internal frame of reference of Daniel, and since such interpretations are so deeply ingrained that they are practically "common sense" for most people who read either apocalypse, I anticipated in my last post that we will not see eye-to-eye on this at all. I do not believe for one second that Daniel refers to anything like the Ottoman Empire or any Anglo-American Empire, or a future Islamic empire, or whatever other creative interpretations may conjure up, but to explain why I believe this, it would require much explanation and delineation of unshared assumptions that is perhaps better done by consulting any major commentary on Daniel (such as in the Word, Hemeneia, International Critical Commentary, Mellen Biblical Commentary, Anchor Bible Commentary, Abingdon Old Testament Commentary, and New Century Bible Commentary series).

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