Where are the Great Crowd in Rev. 7:15? Every JWs should read this.

by Desino 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  tmo1965

  For those of us who believe in the rapture (1 Thess. 4:15-17 )

  15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

  16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

  Those who are in Christ at the rapture, will be taken up to heaven to escape the tribulation, then return for the 1000 year reign with Christ.

  This site explains it quite well:

  http://www.rbc.org/ds/q1201/page3.html
• 

  Tenacious

  I had to bump this thread because there is a watchtower magazine study coming out that says the Great Crowd as spoken of in Revelation is not literal. I can't remember which scripture they use to justify their point of view.

  But the original language does not lie. Bozos in the governing vermin attempting to change scripture again.
• 

  DomineIvimus-DI

  Which article is that Tenacious?
• 

  stan livedeath

  i'm very fortunate in that i dont believe in god--and have no interest in the bible. therefore all the foregoing is complete and utter twaddle to me.
• 

  Finkelstein

  Where is the Great Crowd ?

  In the bible, the writings of fictional mythology.
  
• 

  blondie

  Tenacious, you said:

  I had to bump this thread because there is a watchtower magazine study coming out that says the Great Crowd as spoken of in Revelation is not literal. I can't remember which scripture they use to justify their point of view.

  Hasn't that been the WTS position, that the number of people in the great crowd "is not literal" in the sense of the exact number is unknown? Maybe I misunderstood or there is something left of this statement. Perhaps, I should understand that while the WTS says that the 144,000 is literal and an exact number, but that the number of members of the great crowd is literal, but the exact number is unknown, "which no man was able to number". I have checked the references to the "great crowd" in 2019, and can't find what you might mean.

  In 1917 the WTS said that there were a secondary heavenly class, but in 1935 the WTS did change the definition of who were the great crowd (consecrated refers to those with the heavenly hope).

  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200277174/68/2
  

  In 1917, the book The Finished Mystery asserted that there are “two degrees or kinds of Heavenly salvation, and two degrees or kinds of earthly salvation.” Who made up the four groups of people with those different hopes for salvation? First, there were the 144,000, who would rule with Christ. Second, there was the great multitude. Back then, the idea was that these were nominal Christians who were still in the churches of Christendom. They had a measure of faith but not enough to take a firm stand of integrity. Therefore, they would be given lesser positions in heaven. As to the earth, it was thought that a third group, the “ancient worthies”​—such faithful ones as Abraham, Moses, and others—​would have positions of authority over the fourth group, the world of mankind.
  

  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015125#h=9:0-9:689
  

  The year 1935 marked a dramatic change that affected future Memorial observances, for the meaning of the “great multitude” (KJ), or “great crowd,” of Revelation 7:9 was clarified. Until then, Jehovah’s servants had viewed this group as consecrated Christians who were less zealous. Now this vast throng was identified as faithful worshippers who hope to live on a paradise earth.
  
  
• 

  Tenacious

  Sorry, let me clarify my initial comment.

  I recently read a JW magazine study that will be studied I believe later on this year that talks about the Great Crowd not literally being in front of the throne of God rendering sacred service.

  For the life of me I now can't seem to locate the darn magazine where I read it.

  The WTS uses another scripture in Matthew (I believe) to justify it was not literal but rather a metaphor.

  If anyone can locate which study it is you can post it here. Thanks.
• 

  blondie

  Tenacious, adding that your comment pertained to standing before the throne narrows down my search and makes it more clear to me what to search for. Thanks. The understanding was adjusted in 1935, the WTS is just repeating what was said then and at other places. I have italicized the scriptures the WTS seems to use to support their opinion. ("evidently," the WTS had enough "clear" scriptural backing to believe that the "great crowd" was a lesser group in heaven prior to 1935. The number of partakers in 1925 had reached 95,000 plus so the WTS had to come up with a work around.) I have just highlighted the one paragraph, but the whole article deals with the "great crowd" reminding jws of what the current WTS beliefs are.

  September 2019

  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2019566?q=%22great+crowd%22+throne&p=par
  

  In 1935 the identity of the great crowd in John’s vision was clarified. Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1) They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”​—including the wicked—​are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth. This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven​—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.​—Rev. 5:10.
  
• 

  waton

  wt used phrases that imply the great crowd exists now, but the big deal was that the Great Crowd has to come out of the Great Tribulation.

  No Great Tribulation, no Great Crowd.yet. so: they invented the split Great Tribulation (Great tribulation interruptus), so: wt GT started in 1914, stopped in 1918 -- great crowd of OS comes out, GT starts again at Armageddon.

  Knorr to Franz circa 1943: "looks like the Great Crowd is not going to be that great after all."