Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • willyloman

    I didn't use to think this, but now I do. The trinity's like this:

    You're in a cell, looking thru the bars. There is a doorway beyond the bars. When the guards come and go, they enter through the doorway. But sometimes they come from around one corner, sometimes another, so there must be a hallway beyond the door.

    You and your cellmate talk about escape all the time and argue over whether, when you get past the bars and through the doorway, it would be better to go left or right.

    You never get out of the cell, but you argue bitterly until the day you die. He knows it's left. You're certain it's right. Both of you can produce reasons for your belief.

    Until someone gets out of the cell and walks through the doorway and investigates the hallway, you're never going to know. And no one ever gets out.

    But it gives you something to do, and creates the illusion you are immersed in deep thoughts.

    Since I left dubdom and began rejecting most of what I learned at the KH over the past three decades, I have come to think that the trinity "concept" appears to permeate the New Testament and that the first century Christians writing that portion of the bible were as confused as we are today about what it really meant. Subsequent church fathers struggled with the explanation as well. I recently attended an Episcopal Church and heard a learned priest talk about the trinity and tell the congregation, "It's really hard to explain and even harder to understand." He did not make it an article of faith to believe in it, merely presented it as a puzzle to work on. I liked that approach a lot, as opposed to being told what to think all the time.

  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    In response to the question posed in the subject line, I would pose a counter question, When is the Watchtower ever honest? I don't think there is one topic, one subject, one article of faith where their approach to it is honest and forthright, its always twist, misquote, and misrepresent. The trinity, blood, communion, you name it, the Watchtower arrives at their conclusion through dishonesty and contortionist thinking.

  • Sunspot

    My belief is that the WTS is a cleverly contrived mind-manipulating cult that strives to be "Christian" in appearance, but that is extremely anti-christian in reality. The WTS distorts Jesus' message, his death, the communion that he said for ALL to remember him through, his glorious resurrection that the WTS forbids their members to observe, and the heartbreaking and family-destroying mistreatment of Jesus' sheep at their own hand. There IS no freedom in Christ at all in this organization.

    Working with this premise, it is no wonder that they would go through mental and spiritual gymnastics to try and prove not only the Trinity belief to be wrong, but in everything they do, and teach as "truth", is opposite from the typical understandings of Christianity through the centuries.

    They have made a mockery of the Christ and his teachings while holding themselves up as claiming to be THE "only religion" that God approves on the earth today. They claim that Jesus came back invisibly too "inspect them and found them to be his own in 1919" although the scriptures indicate nothing of the kind. I have yet to see absolute proof of this and have asked many JWs to provide one simple understandable scripture where this is so.

    In fact, NONE of the WTS claims can be proven, and their sad and despicable predictions, speculations and prophecies have NEVER come to pass as they said they would.

    They had their start as a man named Russell was unhappy with his church and their teachings, and began his own church, now known as today's WTS. This proves, under the WTS definition, that Russell was an Apostate and would be kicked out of his own organization shunned forever, had he done the same thing today.

    The Watchtower is not only dishonest when it comes to the Trinity, but is dishonest in everything they teach. The WTS meetings, "bible" studies and "book" studies are merely indoctrination and WTS learning, and not a bible education as they like to claim. Every one of their mandatory-reading publications, is another experience into this mental regulation into the WTS regime.

    It is, and fits the definition and criteria of a cult, right down to their own buzzwords and fear of their followers reading any negative information that will "ruin their faith". Their isolation of the members, paranoia, fear of demons, and fear of persecution is rampant within the Society---much of which is fomented and instigated by the WTS writers themselves to maintain control over their followers.

    The WTS is dishonest about everything, and does not allow the Christ to shine through. The god of this system of things has truly blinded these purposefully misleading, deliberately hateful, deceptive and very clever leaders of this organization. They are leading their members away from the glory of God, his Son the glorified Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    They have MUCH to answer for.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    My JW wife gave me this brochure to study when I was already having severe doubts about WT honesty. It was the worst thing she could have done. SYBITT would have to rate way up there with the most dishonest use of other peoples works that I have ever come across.

    I had come across this before when studying veganism, vegetarianism and AIDS, but to find so much deceit in a document from an organisation priding themselves on their religious 'Truth' left me gobsmacked.

    The quotes from Arthur Weigal are a classic. They conveniently forget his conclusion that Christianity is the last bastion of the old pagan gods when quoting him. Outragious.

    Every JW should get a copy of his "Paganism in Christianity" and study it.

    Thanks for reminding me


  • LittleToe

    Others have put it so well. I'll simply say this:

    If they think they are so right, why act so wrong?

  • slimboyfat

    Regarding the question:

    Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

    As they say round here: is the Pope a Catholic?

  • LittleToe

    True - that's a much more appropriate response

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff
    In fact, NONE of the WTS claims can be proven, and their sad and despicable predictions, speculations and prophecies have NEVER come to pass as they said they would.

    Spot on, Sunspot!

    To me, this is the point. We have all seen multitudinous examples of the intellectual dishonesty that they have employed. We would be kidding ourselves to assume that in this matter they have done less.

    As for this particular doctrine, I have not come to a firm conclusion on the matter. In fact, I have come to wonder of what real value doctrine is at all. Seems like time on this earth would be better spent for the most part in living the moral lessons taught in the Bible and other Holy books.

    Fine research Reverend. Thanx for that.


  • Death to the Pixies
    Death to the Pixies

    A lot of quots here, I will respond to Fortman, because I have read his book..


    Booklet: "The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a triune God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead..."

    Source: Just prior to this statement he says:

    "As a Catholic priest and a firm believer in the Triune God...and convinced that the doctrine is a Christian doctrine that did and could originate only from divine revelation, I start the study from the authentic record of divine revelation that is found in the sacred writings of the Old and New Testaments." >>>>>>

    Reply: No "deliberate" mis-quote here, as The Booklet is trying to show the doctrine is not explicitly or "clearly" taught in the Hebrew Bible even from "hostile Witnesses" such as Fortman (who ultimately believes the Trimity is true). Throughout Fortmans work it is hard to miss his belief that in the Bible (NT&OT) the Trinity is not expicitly taught, but he opts instead the say the building blocks for a later formulation are present. This would be admitted by all to some degree, but not as a God made up of 3 persons, this idea sprang up later. In the Bible, even when the 3 are mentioned together, only the Father is God, as in 1 Cor. 12. This same presentation is also in 1 Clement 45:6: : "Do we have not one God, and One Christ and One gracious Spirit that has been been poured out upon us"

    <<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)

    Booklet: "Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or veiled signs of the trinity of persons is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."

    Source: The statement continues:

    "However, these writers definitely do give us the words that the New Testament uses to express the trinity of persons, Father, Son, Word, Wisdom, Spirit. And their way of understanding these words helps us to see how the revelation of God in the New Testament goes beyond the revelation of God in the Old Testament." >>>>>

    Reply: But to Fortman, it is not formally taught, only the building blocks for a later formulated doctrine are present. ie. the "it is not clearly taught" the Wt was going after was upheld by Fortman.

  • Death to the Pixies
    Death to the Pixies

    <<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)

    Booklet: "The New Testament writers...give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons."

    Source: The very next sentence reads:

    "But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated." >>>>>>

    Reply: Rev Frank, I gather you missed the point to the quotation..."No formal or formulated doctrine"..."no explicit teaching"..... Which was the point the booklet was going for. Again, the building blocks for a formualtion were tehre according to Fortman, not the doctrine itself.

    <<<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.) [Notes Traces of Triadic Pattern]

    Booklet: "Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

    Source: (The sentence right before the Watchtower quote says:

    "The clearest expression of this pattern is found in the baptismal formula where Matthew presents the three together as at once a triad and a unity." >>>>>>>>

    Reply: Not as a "God-head" though. I as a non-Trinitarian believe in the unity of the Father, Son and spirit, but not as a co-equal, co-eternal God-head.

    Fortman is an interersting read and gives a good glimpse to how a Trintiarian must interpret scripture and History to come to his conclusions. I do not mean that in negative way, all of us have to do the same.

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