WHO WAS RIGHT/WRONG: JESUS or PAUL?

by Terry 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I for one find Terry's example of the traffic law excellent.

    Switching to the distinct concept of "covenant" doesn't really help imo. If a husband and wife have a real perfect honeymoon, does that mean the marriage is over? (OK this can happen, but it's not meant to).

    The whole idea that nobody could truly respect the law was certainly not a consensus among Jews (or early Christians for that matter), and even Paul is way more nuanced than that.

    Paul asserts this happened because the perfection of Jesus' sinlessness did away with the need for ritual behavior.

    Again, to be precise, this is WT theology, but I don't find this exact argument in Paul. By coming to earth the Son of God fulfills the Promise to Abraham (which is part of the Torah in the literary sense, but is anterior to the Law in the covenant/legal sense) and closes the parenthesis of the Law arrangement. I don't see Paul ever making the point that the earthly Jesus observed the ritual Law perfectly.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    On what is meant by "fulfilling the Law" in Matthew 5:17-18, I reckon it is not far from the description of Christians in the Kergymata Petrou (a work which stresses fidelity to the Mosaic Law), as those who as "a worshipper of God does the will of God, and observes the precepts of his Law. For in God’s estimation he is not a Jew who is called a Jew among men, nor is he a Gentile that is called a Gentile, but he who, believing in God, fulfills his Law and does his will, though he is not circumcised" (Ps.-Cl. Rec. 5.34).

  • Terry
    Terry

    Since we've opened the can of worms we may as well watch them wriggle

    The entire premise of the Bible (regardless of interpretation) devolves down to God's own opinion of man.

    Here is a Supreme being who makes humans in "his image" and seems to require their admiration and obedience in behavior which is obsessive-compulsively...j..u..s..t. so--or, it drives him crazy with anger and disgust.....and yet.....he can't just wash his hands of them. No.oooo.ooo

    God is linked inextricably to his own creation in a love-hate psychology that is no more divine than a leather fetish.

    The Bible and man's salvation are an excruciating exercise in phobic neurosis on God's part.

    Look at the components carefully!

    Blood....death...sacrifice...long range killing plans....more death...LOVE?!....warnings....tolerance of billions of infractions and injustices.......the list is endless. And why?

    It comes down to God's psychology again!

    God just can't seem to do something necessary RIGHT NOW! HE IS A SERIAL PROCRASTINATOR who would rather make promises and threats than ever get around to cleaning up his mess!!

    His plan of "salvation" allows more death than it offers life.

    Just contemplate the number of those who suffer and die compared to those who live in heaven or paradise!!

    If God had simply eradicated Adam and Eve and started fresh *(using their example as a cautionary warning to the fresh created pair #2) it would have all been accomplished in a flash.

    By permitting Adam and Eve to populate the Earth he no more showed "mercy" than the man in the moon.

    Would you allow heroin addicts with aids to mate and produce children if you could prevent it??

    It isn't fair to the children.

    We are all among those children.

    IF you accept that this ludicrous tale has an ounce of fact in it.

    I certainly don't!

    God comes off as an idiot.

    I'd rather do without this kind of God than have him be an idiot.

    Why others accept a God of such a description (or even admire one) is beyond my comprehension.

  • gumby
    gumby
    It was the Greek Philosophy interpretation of what a Messiah was in Paul's speeches and writings that created an alternate way of dealing with all those centuries of failure that appealed to the Jews and Gentiles alike.

    Paul "spiritualized" the promises and made them look like a great long-term solution rather than an abject failure.

    Paul also "spiritualized" Jesus himself. Paul doesn't seem to realise a real earthy Jesus existed shorty before him with hundreds of eye witnesses at his disposal to use as testimony when trying to evangelize others. Rather he speaks only of a heavenly , spiritual Jesus. Paul was gnostic clear to his nutsack.

    Gumby

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Or as is more generally felt, Paul's concept of Christ was not the Jesus of the Gospels which were not written yet. His Christ's drama took place in the midplace between the spirit world and humans at some time in the past. He has nothing to refer to historically. The supposed references to Gospel parallels are the result of the Gospels misusing the Pauline language and historizing it or later interpolations.

  • Terry
    Terry
    real earthy Jesus existed shorty before him

    I think you are confusing him with Knee-high Miah.

    T.

  • gumby
    gumby
    Paul doesn't seem to realise a real earthy Jesus existed shorty

    Should have been stated" Paul doesn't really believe in an earthly Jesus".

    Terry.....first of all I'd like to say what a good job you do when you cover a topic. You make it easy to follow, and always provide documentation when neccesary.....plus the fact your one helluva writer.

    My question is.....if paul was gnostic and greek influenced, then HOW did he deal with other jews who proclaimed a real earthly messiah/son of god? If there were those who felt Jesus was a real human, why didn't Pauls writings contradict that idea more directly? Did Paul NOT write or speak that way for fear of undoing their hopes for a literal return of their messiah?.....Or, do you feel there really was a Paul in the first place?

    Gumby

  • acadian
    acadian

    Here's some interesting reading... for educational purposes only...

    Rise & Usurpation of Pauline Christianity

    INTRO

    The rise of Churchanity began when Romanized converts to Nazoreanism decided to change the original teachings of Yeshu (Jesus) to fit their own needs and lifestyles. They were able to do this quite effectively since their founder, Paul, had been in major disagreement with many basic Nazorean principles. Modern Christianity is Paul based and has arisen out of this original watering down of the true Teachings of Christ, mingled with those of Judaism and the Roman Mystery Cults.

    The stolen teachings of the true Nazorean Sect, like the five sons of the Primal Man Himself, were eventually scattered and divided to form the five patriarchal sees of Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome. Each of these had a Patriarch or Archbishop ruling over the patriarchate. Eventually the Roman patriarch sought dominion over the other four, causing greater Churchanity schism. We assign these sees to the 5 symbolic directions and elements:

    • CENTER/ZEPHYR: Jerusalem: Armenian Church.
    • NORTH/WIND: Constantinople: Byzantine, Greek Orthodox Churches, Russian Orthodox, Melkites, Serbian.
    • WEST/LIGHT: Rome: Roman Catholics.
    • SOUTH/WATER: Alexandria: Egyptian Coptics and Ethiopian Church.
    • EAST/FIRE: Antioch: Syrian Orthodox Church, Chaldean, Maronite and the Nestorian Church.

    NAZOREANS AND JEWISH DIFFERENCES
    "Nasaraeanism is older than Judaism" - Ancient Mandaean saying

    Rabbinical Judaism is founded on the Old Testament scriptures. We know the Nazorean's and Essenes had their own spiritual texts and rejected the 5 Books of Moses and the Prophets of the Jews, thinking that they had been falsly written by one Tavis, not Moses. The ancient historian Epiphanius wrote:

    Nazoreans .... who forbid all flesh-eating, and do not eat living things at all. . . . . But they hold that the scriptures of the Pentateuch were not written by Moses, and maintain that they have others.(Panarion)

    Pauline Churchanity, in opposition to original Nazorean Christians, accepted the Old Testament canon of the Jews and used it to bolster their own claims to apostolic continuity. All five Churchanity Sees are tainted with this darkness.

    NAZOREAN LAW OF MOSES

    Nazoreans were an ancient Gnostic sect of northern Palestine that taught of a true Law of Moses that was very simple, unlegalistic, and different from the Jewish One. It mandated keeping a lunar calendar, first fruit festivals, eating a vegetarian diet, daily baptism and being kind to all creatures and people. The school of Paul later tried to portray the early Nazorean's as believing in the Jewish Scriptures, yet the Nazoreans taught that the Jewish Law of Moses was false and evil. Peter tells us that the true Law of Moses was not written down:

    "The law of God was given by Moses, without writing, to seventy wise men, to be handed down, that the government might be carried on by succession. But after that Moses was taken up, it was written by some one, but not by Moses." -from the Clementine Homilies.(I, II, III, IV)

    The Nazorean oral Law was a simple one different than the false and complicated written one found in the OT. Peter tells us:

    "For the Scriptures have had joined to them many falsehoods against God on this account. The prophet Moses having by the order of God delivered the law, with the explanations, to certain chosen men, some seventy in number, in order that they also might instruct such of the people as chose, after a little the written law had added to it certain falsehoods contrary to the law of God, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them; the wicked one having dared to work this...." -from the Clementine Homilies.(I, II, III, IV)

    We can partially understand this oral Law by those who opposed it, like Paul. In Colossians he encourages his followers to reject this Law reafirmed by Christ to his disciples. Paul calls this Law the "commandments and doctrines of men". He particularly is opposed to Yeshu's admonitions to observe a plant based diet, avoidance of drunkenness, observe lunar festivals, and keep daily prayer to various gods and goddesses, etc. Paul writes:

    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]....voluntary humility and worshipping of angels..." Colossians
    PETER, JAMES, JOHN & PAUL

    Peter, James and John preserved the true teachings of Yeshu the Nazorean after his death. Paul did not. Paul was the opponent and not the apostle of Historic Christianity. He used the name of Christ, but little else from earliest Nazorean Christianity. He rejected the goodness that was at the core of the Nazorean motto: "Good is the Good to the Good". The New Testament is a false fabrication of Paul's school and the stories therein are based only loosely on the historical personage of Jesus Christ. They are also full of subtle propaganda against the true lineage of light. Later heresiologists of Paul's school characterized the true branch as heretic Gnostics, and through their pact with Rome were able to complete the takeover started so many years before by their founder Paul. In Paul's new "feel good" religion few spiritual practices are required and Nazorean culture and diet are abandoned.

    "SAINT" SAUL'S SCHISM

    In Paul's own account of his conversion he declares his independence from the Jerusalem church: "Immediately, I conferred not with the flesh and blood; neither went I up to Jerusalem to them who were Apostles before me; but I went away into Arabia." He adds: "I made known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, save through revelation of the Christ revealed within."

    What gospel was this? Not the same one that Peter, James, and John got from Yeshua! Why was it necessary for Paul to get his revelation from the "Lord"? Paul implies that this was necessary because the original disciples were too ignorant and too Jewish. Why then did Yeshu choose them to begin with? The only plausible answer is that Paul did not want to be trained in the Nazorean faith by the legitimate sucessors of Christ - James and the Jerusalem Church, but instead wished to start his own faith based only loosely on the teachings of Jesus.

    PAUL'S BIBLE

    From accounts of attitudes of Christ's followers in Judaea, and later Manichaean sources we know that early true followers of Yeshu did not accept the Pauline School's New Testament as authentic. Manichaean's said:

    "We have proved again and again, the writings are not the production of Christ or of His apostles, but a compilation of rumors and beliefs, made, long after their departure, by some obscure semi-Jews, not in harmony even with one another, and published by them under the name of the apostles, or of those considered the followers of the apostles, so as to give the appearance of apostolic authority to all these blunders and falsehoods." (Faustus, Contra Faustus Manicheun)

    These writings of Paul's do not mention much of Jesus or of James and Peter except in a negative light. The Acts and Gospels produced later by his school mention Peter and James only in negative condescending terms, and present a made-up miracle Christ whose words are distorted and his acts fantasized. Paul openly opposed all the original followers of Yeshu (Jesus), as he says in Galatians: "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Gal.2:11). Paul tells us a few things about Yeshu, but not much.

    PAUL'S REJECTION OF PETER & JAMES

    Paul began creating his own converts to his own religion, warning them to reject Peter, James, and John: those "pre-eminent apostles," whom he calls "false prophets, deceitful workers, and ministers of Satan", who came among them to preach "another Jesus" whom he did not preach, and a different gospel from that which they had received from him. To the Galatians he says: "If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be damned;" or let him be cursed. He was speaking of the Jerusalem church, of course.

    The Nazoreans, also called Ebionites, Elkasites, and Gnostics, rejected Paul in turn: "Those who are called Ebionites . . . use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. " (Irenaeus, Adversus haereses (Against Heresies), 180 A.D.) The "law" Paul was against was the oral law of Yeshu and Moses - the law of the original Judaean church. Pauls side of the story is given in the NT Book of Acts.
    The Nazoreans version of the Acts of the Apostles is preserved in the Clementine Homilies I, II, III, IV and Clementine Recognitions ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ) . In these one finds the true Peter represented, and Paul called "the man who is my enemy" (Letter of Peter to James) In these texts Peter speaks against blind faith: "Do not think that we say that these things are only to be received by faith, but also that they are to be asserted by reason. For indeed it is not safe to commit these things to bare faith without reason, since assuredly truth cannot be without reason."

    PAUL'S NEW CHURCH

    Paul's new religion was an amalgamation of the Mysteries in Rome, his own interpretation of fake Jewish Scriptures, and his own take on the meaning of Christ. His goal was the replacement of of the 3 Pillars of Nazoreanism - Peter, James and John, with a fourth pillar - himself. This switch was bolstered up by the Epistles of Paul and Acts wherein Paul is made the champion of the faith and the original disciples are cast in the light of ignorant fisherman filled with doubt, fear and prejudice against outsiders.

    Paul preached against the Law of Yeshu (Jesus) and his brother James whom Paul had rejected: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom.3:28). He taught that you could do anything you wanted, just so long as you had "faith" in being saved by a divine redeemer. Yeshu never taught salvation by faith, nor did his successors James or Miryai. They taught development of character through spiritual service, rituals, discipline, and gaining of gnosis.

    Paul says, "I went up [to Jerusalem] by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which I preached among the gentiles..." (Gal.2:2). If this was the same gospel Peter, James, and John were preaching, what need of explaining it to the elders at Jerusalem? This was the Jerusalem Council, which was held in about A. D. 45. There is no indication that Paul's new religion found any favor in Jerusalem. He went his own way and started his own religion.

    PAUL'S PACT WITH ROME

    We know from the Letter of Peter to James that the Nazorean's refused to share their scriptures with Paul, forcing his school to create their own made up "New Testament":

    "And this I know, not as being a prophet, but as already seeing the beginning of this very evil. For some from among the Gentiles have rejected my legal preaching, attaching themselves to certain lawless and trifling preaching of the man who is my enemy. . . Therefore, that no such thing may happen, for this end I have prayed and besought you not to communicate the books of my preaching which I have sent you to any one, whether of our own nation or of another nation, before trial..."- Letter of Peter to James

    We have another source for these events. They are mentioned in an ancient Arabic text which says:

    The Romans reigned over them. The Christians used to complain to the Romans about the Judaeans, showed them their own weakness and appealed to their pity. And the Romans did pity them. This used to happen frequently. And the Romans said to the Christians: "Between us and the Judaeans there is a pact which obliges us not to change their religious laws. But if you would abandon their laws and separate yourselves from them, praying as we do while facing the East, eating the things we eat, and regarding as permissible that which we consider as such, we should help you and make you powerful, and the Judaeans would find no way to harm you, On the contrary, you would be more powerful than they. The Christians answered: "We will do this." And the Romans said: "Go, fetch your companions, and bring your Book .

    The Christians went to their companions, informed them of what had taken place between them and the Romans and said to them: "Bring the Gospel, and stand up so that we should go to them." But these companions said to them: "You have done ill. We are not permitted to let the Romans pollute the Gospel. In giving a favorable answer to the Romans, you have accordingly departed from the religion. We are therefore no longer permitted to associate with you; on the contrary, we are obliged to declare that there is nothing in common between us and you;" and they prevented their taking possession of the Gospel or gaining access to it. In consequence a violent quarrel broke out between the two groups.(The Establishment of Proofs . . . by 'Abd al-Jabbar)


    PAUL'S NEW SCRIPTURE

    During the first few years, the Pauline Christianity school just used the epistles of Paul. After having their request to get the Nazorean scriptures rejected, they were forced to produce their own. They made up the New Testament:

    As for those who had given a favorable answer to the Romans they came together and took counsel as to how to replace the Gospel, seeing that it was lost to them. Thus the opinion that a Gospel should be composed was established among them. They said: "the Torah consists only of narratives concerning the births of the prophets and of the histories of their lives. We are going to construct a Gospel according to this pattern. Everyone among us is going to call to mind that which he remembers of the words of the Gospel and of the things about which the Christians (Nazoreans?) talked among themselves when speaking of Christ." Accordingly, some people wrote a Gospel. After them came others who wrote another Gospel. In this manner a certain number of Gospels were written. However a great part of what was contained in the original was missing in them. There were among them men, one after another, who knew many things that were contained in the true Gospel, but with a view to establishing their dominion, they refrained from communicating them. In all this there was no mention of the cross or of the crucifix. According to them there were eighty Gospels. However, their number constantly diminished and became less, until only four Gospels were left which are due to four individuals. Every one of them composed in his time a Gospel. Then another came after him, saw that the Gospel composed by his predecessor was imperfect, and composed another which according to him was more correct, nearer to correction than the Gospel of the others. . . . .These sects are of the opinion that these four Evangelists were companions and disciples of Christ. But they do not know, having no information on the subject, who they were. On this point they can merely make a claim. (The Establishment of Proofs . . . by 'Abd al-Jabbar)

    JAMES, MIRYAI, & ELXAI

    The true successors to Yeshu continued to teach Nazorean Gnosis. They did not use the New Testament but other books like the Gospel of Thomas. James was the leader of the Nazoreans when Yeshu died, from about 32 A.D to 62 A.D. Miryai was a leader of the Nazoreans after 62 A.D. Elxai was from about 101 A.D onwards. He reunited the Ossaeans with the Nazoreans and began a strict monastic movement. He had a brother named Yesai who wrote an even holier book that was kept secret. His movement is called the Elkasite. Mani (216AD) would later grow up in an Elkasite monastery. The Roman Christians did not follow the Way of Yeshu, but the Path of Paul:

    "He (Yeshu) and his companions behaved constantly in this manner, until he left this world. He said to his companions: "Act as you have seen me act, instruct people in accordance with instructions I have given you, and be for them what I have been for you." His companions behaved constantly in this manner and in accordance with this. And so did those who came after the first generation of his companions, and also those who came long after. Then they began to make changes and alterations, to introduce innovations into the religion, to seek dominion, to make friends with people by indulging their passions, to try to circumvent the Judaeans and to satisfy the anger which they felt against the latter, even if in doing so they had to abandon the religion. This is clear from the Gospels which are with them and to which they refer and from their book, known as the Book of Acts. It is written there: A group of Christians left Jerusalem and came to Antioch and other towns of Syria."(The Establishment of Proofs . . . by 'Abd al-Jabbar)

    IRENAEUS POLARIZES CHRISTIANITY & NAZOREANISM

    Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was supposedly a student of St. John the Apostle (actually John the Elder who probably wrote the Gospel of John.) Irenaeus lived ca. 120-202 C.E. Polycarp had at least one Gnostic student as well, but Irenaeus chose the non Gnostic path and became a bitter opponent of all things Gnostic. He wrote anti-Gnostic writings that drew a clear line of separation between the two schools. Some have said: "What Irenaeus achieved . . . was not only the intended refutation, but the lasting polarization of Christian fronts" (Gerard Vallee)

    "Irenaeus engages in overt ridicule against the true lineage, which demonstrates the confidence and feeling of superiority that his school was beginning to feel by his time. Irenaeus cleverly labels the true gnostics as heretics, and his own false school as the true preserver of the original tradition. To acheive this Irenaeus quotes his opponents out of context and couched within his own ridiculing comments, and makes false claims to an Apostolic Authority for his school and his tradition. Later elements of Pauline Churchanity will take this theme and elaborate on it, rewriting history to reflect their desire for legitimacy, and employing the might of Rome and the Emperor Constantine to enforce it." (Yesai Nasrai, O:N:E: )

    GNOSTICISM vs MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY

    GNOSTICISMPAULINISM
    Worships a Heavenly Mother & Father called LIFE!Worships an intolerant God called YAHWEH!
    Encourages Woman priestesses & gender balanceWoman treated as second class property
    Uses Mandaic, Nag, & Manichaean textsUses Ezra's Torah & fabricated New Testament
    Worships as Nazoreans, allows only vegan foodWorships as Jews did, allows animal eating
    Tolerates other religionsPersecutes other religions & schools
    Monastics chant Gnostic PsalmsMonastics use Jewish Psalms
    Teaches natural birth and spiritual resurrectionTeaches supernatural birth & physical resurrection
    Encourages free thinking & personal responsibilityMandates conformity and blind obedience

    WHY MANI USED PAUL'S WRITINGS ANYWAY

    Paul started his own distinct religion that was different than original Nazorean Christianity of Jesus and James. The lineage of Light rejected Paul as a heretic until Mani came along in 216 AD. Mani was able to utilize the writings of the Gentile Pauline church because Mani's school broke out of the Nazorean mold that Paul had betrayed. Mani synthesized many diverse religions and was able to even utilize Paul, not as a legitimate Apostle of Christ, but as a founder of a foreign Roman religion in which Mani found some truth. Mani also utilized Buddhist, Jain, Zarathrustrian, Taoist and other religious systems as well.

    PERSECUTION OF TRUE CHRISTIANS
    Apostacy and the Evolution of False Christianity

    Peter tells us that Yeshu forsaw the ambition and apostacy of Paul and others: "For there will be, as the Lord said, false apostles, false prophets, heresies, desires for supremacy. ..." - from the Clementine Homilies.(I, II, III, IV)

    The Savior warned Peter further:

    "But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they will boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone."(Apocalypse of Peter)

    Paul's school continued to deviate farther and farther from what little truth they originally had, and continued to persecute the true lineage's of Light, especially after they were empowered with the might of Rome after Constantine.

    Source: http://essenes.net/new/subteachings.html


    Acadian

  • Terry
    Terry
    My question is.....if paul was gnostic and greek influenced, then HOW did he deal with other jews who proclaimed a real earthly messiah/son of god? If there were those who felt Jesus was a real human, why didn't Pauls writings contradict that idea more directly? Did Paul NOT write or speak that way for fear of undoing their hopes for a literal return of their messiah?.....Or, do you feel there really was a Paul in the first place?

    Gumby




    Paul liked to boast (about not boasting while boasting) that he could be "all things to all people"



    He was certainly good at telling people what they needed to hear to disarm their suspicions of him.



    My own view is that he was like a TV evangelist today in being able to get people roused up and excited about the messege.



    Gentiles didn't want to cut the end of their penis off (the women didn't mind ) and Paul, in effect, did away with that and called it a "vision" which was his equivalent of the very handy "new light".



    Then, he had to face the Jerusalem Judaism/Christian-Messiah elders and justify this new policy. I'm sure he made it sound like "no big deal" because apparently it looked like he wasn't tampering with Judaism at all....just finding new ways of recruiting Gentiles into the flock which was desperately needed in view of the overwhelming superiority of numbers among Roman pagans.



    Where did Paul even get any authority at all to speak? He came up with the vision on the road to Damascus. My own view of this vision thingy is that it either was a result of his epilepsy or just like any TV evangelist story: made up entirely in order to persuade the gullible. Don't know which.



    Suffice it to say Paul was able to do two things very well indeed.



    1.Jews who had Messiah hopes could be sold the idea that THEY WERE RIGHT! Jesus WAS the Messiah (so stop looking already!) Jesus is going to give you everything you've been wanting: the destruction of Rome and the establishment of a Kingdom superior to every other! All they had to do was wait for him to return and kick Roman ass. Meanwhile.....just do this and that and the other that I tell you......



    2.Pagans were sick to death of Roman wars and losing loved ones in battle. Christianity was a kinder and gentler way of conquering the world. Moreover, so many male citizens had died in wars over the decades that Rome was a predominently female population! The sweetness of Jesus Sermon on the Mount messege appealed to them directly. It promised a world to come (shortly, of course) that was good for women and children to live in.)



    So, Paul had two audiences listening to him. He used the provenance of the ancient Jewish religion to dovetail with the social psychology of the pagan Romans. He welded the Greek ethos of a mystical IDEAL WORLD of the Divine onto the nuts and bolts promises of the Jewish god to Abraham.



    This was the right messege at the right time.



    Timing is everything.


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    My question is.....if paul was gnostic and greek influenced, then HOW did he deal with other jews who proclaimed a real earthly messiah/son of god?



    Paul was a Jew and his theology is firmly rooted in Hellenized Judaism. He labeled some competing Christian sects as "Judaisers" and "minding earthly things" because they did not grasp his higher Christology/soteriology.

    If there were those who felt Jesus was a real human, why didn't Pauls writings contradict that idea more directly?

    It isn't that Paul did not think his Christ was real, his Christ was more real than all earthly things. It is also possible he understood this Christ to have walked on earth "in the likeness of men" that is with the appearance of being human. By saying just those kinds of things he was contradicting at least some of the Gospel stories. Paul's own thoughts evolved with time and it is difficult to pin down just what he was teaching. His Christology wasn't however bound to the language of earth and history.

    Or, do you feel there really was a Paul in the first place?

    The best evidence seems to me to favor a Paul as writer of at least most of 4 books. Yet it is not imposible that in fact Marcion was the real Paul. He feeling that the Christology he preached was a revival of Christianity's origins. The fact is that the books of Paul were not known to have been collected or popular before Marcion. All that we have appears to have come through his hands.

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