listing of authorities and their date for the fall of Jerusalem

by M.J. 128 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • M.J.
    M.J.
    If he chooses 605 which has more certain evidence then if it ends in 539 then the numbers are short. If he chooses 609 then he has the numbers ending in 539 but the beginning is too fuzzy with no historical certainty. So his beginning is cointradictory.

    So what if there's "no historical certainty" regarding this? You make the fallacy here of equating uncertainty with contradiction.

    The end date of 539 for the the Fall of Babylon has no scriptural support for many reasons because the principal texts refer to the seventy years belonging to Judah and not to Babylon and the period was of servitude, exile and desolation which makes the Babylon date impossible, The texts clearly prove that the period ended with the Return.

    "Jeremiah 25:12 cannot be taken at face value because it contradicts celebrated scholars' interpretation of the seventy years"

  • scholar
    scholar

    MJ

    Scholars of genuine reputre get the facts right and this is what Jonsson as a pseudo does not do for he cannot work how many lines of evidence there are whether it is 17 or 18. His hypothesis is not scholarship but simply bashing the beliefs of a religious group of which he was a member and believed in its teachings including its chronology.

    Such lines of eviderce whatever their number do not destroy 607 but simply present alternative chronologies with their related interpretations. The calcuable 607 well established by celebrated WT scholars has nothing to fear from the theories of men or apostates. The date's calculation is faithful to the Bible and the secular evidence and is proven by the fact that 1914 saw the fulfillment of the Gentile Times.

    scholar JW

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Wiley postates...blah blah blah.... satanic chronology..... blah....blah.... Jonsson hypothesis....blah...blah...blah...blah....17 or 18 lines of evidence....blah...blah blah...586 or 587...... blah....blah....blah.......celebrated Watchtower scholars.....blah....blah....blah....blah.....sacred chronology......blah....blah......abundant secular evidence for 607 blah.......blah....blah.....blah.....MA......BA......blahhhhhh.....Religious....blahhhhhhh.......Studies.........blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............

  • scholar
    scholar

    MJ

    The fact that the Jonsson hypothesis is fuzzy at the beginning of the seventy years is critical to his whole hypothesis because his 17/18 lines of evidence is based upon a singular interpretation of the seventy years namely that it was one of servitude alone.

    Fallacy and contradiction have no place in logic or reason and have no place in constructing a chronology and that is why 586/587 is impossible because these dates are unreasonable in ignoring the epochal event of a seventy year period of servitude-exile and desolation.

    Jereremiah 25:12 supports the interpretation forementioned because it factually refers to an already ended or fulfilled seventy years with the Return from Babylon with the judgement upon Babylon to be experienced along with all of the other nations.

    scholar JW

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I've seen scholars who show greater care than you, "scholar", explain to you in painful detail why Johnsson did not err in detailing the lines of evidence. I see you continue to ignore their information.

    You are a fan, a cheerleader, an unabashed supporter of the Watchtower doctrine. But you are no scholar.

    I post this with faint hope you will heed my advice, but for new readers who may not realize that your claims, though repeated often, have not been supported with detailed scholarship, and that your claims of poor scholarship by others is laughable.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/87780/1.ashx

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    M.J., I'm glad to see how quickly you've caught on to the breathtaking dishonesty of this scholar pretendus. Note that he'll not comment intelligibly on my post here.

    scholar pretendus wrote:

    : Scholars of genuine reputre get the facts right

    True, which is why you're a mere scholar pretendus. But it's not that you don't have the intelligence to get them right -- it's that you don't have the moral fiber to admit that you worship the Watchtower cult.

    : and this is what Jonsson as a pseudo does not do for he cannot work how many lines of evidence there are whether it is 17 or 18.

    We've been through this at least half a dozen times before. Jonsson counts two fragments of the same tablet as ONE line of evidence. That's because he's an honest scholar and understands the simple fact that breaking a piece of evidence into many pieces does not create many pieces of evidence. The fact is: you understand this, but your moral lack forces you to grasp at any straw you can dig up, no matter how stupid.

    : His hypothesis is not scholarship but simply bashing the beliefs of a religious group of which he was a member and believed in its teachings including its chronology.

    Since Jonsson simply collates and summarizes diverse scholarly writings about Neo-Babylonian chronology, such as can be found in works like The Cambridge Ancient History and Jack Finegan's Handbook of Biblical Chronology, your claim is obviously grossly dishonest. It is once again based solely on your moral stupidity and desire to remain in your cult. It's also grossly dishonest because you know very well that Jonsson began his studies of chronology when he was a Regular Pioneer in order to refute what a critic told him.

    : Such lines of eviderce whatever their number do not destroy 607 but simply present alternative chronologies with their related interpretations.

    Utter rubbish! Jerusalem cannot have been destroyed both in 607 and 587/6 B.C.

    : The calcuable 607 well established by celebrated WT scholars has nothing to fear from the theories of men or apostates.

    Just as all cult claims have nothing to fear from the facts.

    : The date's calculation is faithful to the Bible and the secular evidence

    It is faithful to neither. It contradicts biblical passages, ignores others, ignores all secular evidence, and has no secular evidence in its support. All of this is easily proved by your own posting history -- you have yet to present any such evidence, you do not comment substantively on any criticisms, and you don't even quote the Bible itself.

    : and is proven by the fact that 1914 saw the fulfillment of the Gentile Times.

    LOL! Everyone who carefully examines the facts of history comes to see how stupid a claim this is. You know it as well, since you've completely failed to come up with a shred of evidence to support this claim, and utterly failed to intelligibly critique the many refutations of it.

    : The fact that the Jonsson hypothesis is fuzzy at the beginning of the seventy years is critical to his whole hypothesis because his 17/18 lines of evidence is based upon a singular interpretation of the seventy years namely that it was one of servitude alone.

    This once again assumes that the figure of 70 years is of any real historical significance. The fact is that it is significant only to one insignificant group of people: modern day Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses. No else cares, or needs to care.

    But your claim is not even correct. If one assumes that the 70 years is an exact number, then from Babylon's fall in 539 B.C. back to 609 B.C. fills the bill perfectly. In 609 B.C. Babylon and its allies defeated the last remnants of the Assyrian empire and became the undisputed dominant power in the Middle East. One can even argue, using JW notions, that this was the date when the "head of gold" of Daniel's dream image became reality, and that Babylon became one of the prophetic World Powers.

    : Fallacy and contradiction have no place in logic or reason and have no place in constructing a chronology

    This is hysterically funny, coming from you. It goes to show, as if any further demonstration were needed, that your gross scholastic dishonesty does not stem from intellectual stupidity, but from a devotion to your cult leaders.

    : and that is why 586/587 is impossible because these dates are unreasonable in ignoring the epochal event of a seventy year period of servitude-exile and desolation.

    The usual grandstanding, and standing logic and reason on its head.

    : Jereremiah 25:12 supports the interpretation forementioned because it factually refers to an already ended or fulfilled seventy years with the Return from Babylon with the judgement upon Babylon to be experienced along with all of the other nations.

    Utter nonsense. The passage plainly states that the 70 years would end when the king of Babylon -- a king that, according to Jeremiah 27: 6,7 must be of Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty -- was punished. That punishing inarguably occurred in 539 B.C.

    Now let's see if you can manage to honestly answer a simple question:

    What are the beginning and ending dates of the 2nd year of Cyrus as ruler of Babylon?

    M.J., if you're still reading by this point, you'll note that scholar pretendus will avoid this question.

    AlanF

  • toreador
    toreador

    Great job people.

    I am mainly marking this page so I know where to pick up where I left off.

    Tor

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Response to post 4397

    Jonsson the pseudo scholar needs to get his facts right and plainly tell his readers how many lines of evidence he has concocted, 17 or 18 plain and simple.

    His hypothesis is not a contribution to scholarship as he has not contributed anything new to scholarship and has not had his work peer reviewed. His presentation of Neo-Babylonian chronology and his interpretation of the 'seventy years' is written up to undermine WT chronology and the pivotal date of 607.

    Further, his hypothesis is shonky because it fails to determine the precise year of the Fall whether it was 586 or 587, Celebrated WT scholars using the same biblical evidence have long determined the precise year as 607 BCE. A date that is faithful to the Bible and secular materials as it uses secular materials for the Fall of Babylon in 539 and the Return in 537 BCE. It alone harmonizes all of the principal seventy year texts in total agreement with Josephus. The date 607 is well established in comparison to the shonky and fuzzy Neo-Babylonian chronology which is incomplete and falls short some twenty years.

    Well the seventy years may have no significance for you then how is it the case that you spend so time trying to defend Jonsson's view of the seventy years? Pseudo scholar Jonsson has based his entire hypothesis on the seventy years in order for his Neo-Babylonian chronology particularly his fuzzy understanding of Jeremiah 29:10.

    The fuzzy date of 609 is of no help because it represents nothing of worth in history. Scholars generally accept that Assyria ended as World Power long before 609 BCE. There are a few scholars who advocate 609 on these grounds but historians are too ambiguous about when precisely Assyria fell and Babylonian Power took over.

    Jeremiah 25:12 most emphatically has nothing to say that would date it to 539 for its judgement against Babylon could only commence after the years ended with the Return of the Exiles in 537. Your theory here is simply impossible. The text clearly associates the judgement against Babylon with the desolation of Babylon and its land which did not happen in 539 BCE.

    The 2nd year of Cyrus if you mean his regnal year would run from Nisan 537 until Nisan 536 BCE for your enlightenment and that of MJ.

    scholar JW

  • dozy
    dozy



    Opinion poll on views of ex-witnesses (as tabulated from JWD discussions)

    Absolute belief in bible as inspired .....25%

    Absolute belief in God or similar supreme-being concept......40%

    Absolute belief that scriptural prohibition of blood does not apply to transfusions ....100%

    Absolute belief in 586 / 587 ( delete as required ) date of Jerusalem's destruction .....100%

    Analysis: The only certainties for many ex-witnesses is that JWs are pretty much wrong about everything. A "critique" is published every week on the Watchtower which contains 100% criticism despite the average WT article containing perhaps 80 supporting scriptural references. They will argue strongly about the "wrongness" of 607 , yet they are much hazier on far more important issues of belief , conduct and purpose.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I didn't realize that "no blood" and "607" were pretty well everything.

    In Blondie's criticism, I have rarely see her challenge the scriptures quoted, merely the application. I, personally, notice that few Watchtower articles are BIBLE studies but rather, a repetition of some watchtower doctrine, with random supporting scriptures supplied. I fail to see how the Watchtower Society can be held up as being mostly right.

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