Bible-Believing and the End Times

by jgnat 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Honesty
    And secondary to that, like Auld Soul, I would like to understand how BELIEVING THE END TIMES ARE IMMINENT change a Christian's behavior, if at all.

    I believe that I am living in the end time... of my life here. Let's face it, how many people live to be 106? If I live another 53 years that's how old I'll be, so I know I am living in the end times.

    Now, if you are thinking about the end of the age being imminent... I don't know about that other than that my hope is Christ's second coming. He will return one day but it will not be in 1874, 1914, 1925 or 1975.

    Rev 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, including those who pierced Him. And all the families of the earth

    will mourn over Him. This is certain. Amen .

  • jgnat

    Does this belief lead you to be more compassionate, or perhaps is your desire to share the message of salvation more urgent, Honesty?

    ...or is living with Christ daily a daily choice, independent of what happens tomorrow?

  • Honesty
    Does this belief lead you to be more compassionate, or perhaps is your desire to share the message of salvation more urgent, Honesty?

    ...or is living with Christ daily a daily choice, independent of what happens tomorrow?

    You are very perceptive. Actually, because greater is He that is in me I am becoming more compassionate. Without Christ dwelling in my heart I could never change into a compassionate person from the evil that I was for so many years. Because Christ enters a person's heart when they accept Him as their Lord the message of salvation is strong within me and I do share it with others as much as possible (a lot more than I ever shared the WT message) while realising that I'm just planting seeds that God may cause to grow. Living with Christ is a choice of freedom that I never enjoyed as a Jehovah's Witness. My choice of serving Jesus is one that I make daily and I ask Him to accept the worship and adoration I give Him from my heart. I don't have to worry about today or tomorrow as long as I have Jesus as my God and my Lord. He saves me from my sins and has granted to me the privilege of serving Him.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    Star Moore, you haven't perchance, met Brown Boy on the streets of New York? Just wondering...

    Truthfully Star is a pretty balanced person. Know exactly where you're coming from with it in regards to bb. After having gone back and forth in emails phone calls and spending some time with her, she has her view and knows it might not be the most popular, but she is sane. just my .02 meagan

  • AuldSoul

    Yeah, Meagan, but she left us HANGING! I need AIR! I said, "bated breath..." this is moving into critical

    She didn't tell us WHO Michael is. Dagnabit! (<--- gratuitous Southern euphemism, I'm allowed one per month )


  • jgnat

    I'm not saying insane, but people have been known to follow firmly held beliefs that to everyone else, looks like pure imagination. I don't think Carolyn Lama is insane. But I would not follow her footsteps. There is no force in earth or heaven that would have separated me from my son, as she has willingly done.

  • Qcmbr

    I think we are living in the end times but its not due to the bible alone (i.e. quit reading if you wish to avoid some LDS dogma;): Note this is super dooper long - feel free to take toilet breaks, bring a barf bag, make occasional changes to posture to avoid strain etc.. By the way this is very very JW style - you'll recognise some of it.

    (New Testament | Luke 21:24)

    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    - The critical question here is what is the time of the Gentiles and when will it be fulfilled?

    LDS answer - angel talks to Joseph Smith and amongst other things says:

    "And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations; But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men's hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth. . . . And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel. But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men. And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (D&C 45:24-6, 28-30).

    So technically from an LDS viewpoint the times of the Gentiles is pretty much over.

    "In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. . . . He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated that the fulness of the Gentiles was soon to come in" (Joseph Smith History 1:40-1).

    Here's Isaiah 11:10 - 16)

    10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
    13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
    14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
    15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
    16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

    The Jews got their homeland:

    Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the British assumed control of Palestine. In November 1917, the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, announcing its intention to facilitate the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine which included, among other things, provisions calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, facilitating Jewish immigration and encouraging Jewish settlement on the land.

    Harry Levin: At 4 o'clock in the Museum Hall in Tel-Aviv, Ben-Gurion proclaimed the establishment of the independent State of Israel. . . Hatikvah rolled out, a hymn of thanksgiving. Rabbi Fishman, his voice choked with tears, pronounced the Sheheheyanu. A deep Amen from the throats of the assembly like a congregation at worship. A minute's silence; among us, too. You could feel the taut self-restraint in each one gathered around the wireless. Then Ben-Gurion read the first Ordinance: "All the laws enacted under the Palestine White Paper, 1939, of the British Government, and all laws deriving from it, are here declared null and void."

    So the lamp snuffed out nearly 2,000 years ago was relighted today. A miracle as great as any that ever happened in this land. The whole world must sense its drama, though many hate it.

    Wars at the end:

    Joseph Smith - "I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina. It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832" (D&C 130:12-3).

    John Taylor said, "Joseph Smith had told them where it would start, that it should be a terrible time of bloodshed and that it should start in South Carolina. But I tell you today the end is not yet. You will see worse things than that, for God will lay his hand upon this nation, and they will feel it more terribly than ever they have done before; there will be more bloodshed, more ruin, more devastation than never they have seen before" (JD 20:318-9).

    We have now had two world wars that are unparralled due to the industrialisation and globalisation of war (i.e Ghengis may have killed as many but not across the whole world) We are poised on a knife edge in several areas where nukes are available. Militant Islam is just about powerful enough to bring society down if it was so provoked.

    US constitution under threat:

    Brigham Young said, "Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the 'Mormon' Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it" (JD 2:182). One to watch! If you ever see it you read it here:)

    Moses Thatcher said, "When war and desolation and bloodshed, and the ripping up of society come upon the nation, I have said to such, 'Come to Utah and we will divide our morsel of food with you, we will divide our clothing with you, and we will offer you protection.' I will tell you, my brethren and sisters, the day will come, and it is not far distant, when he who will not take up his sword against his neighbor, will have to flee to Zion for safety; and it is presupposed in this prediction that Zion will have power to give them protection. We are not going to do it outside of the government, either; we are going to do it inside the government. There is no power in this land to turn this people against the government of the United States. They will maintain the Constitution of this country inviolate, and although it may have been torn to shreds they will tie it together again, and maintain every principle of it, holding it up to the downtrodden of every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and they will do it, too, under the Stars and Stripes" (JD 26:334-5).

    Apostacy - unless we assume that all christian churches no matter what they believe or teach are true that at least some of them have apostacised.

    (New Testament | 1 Timothy 4:1 - 2)

    1 NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    (New Testament | 2 Thessalonians 2:2 - 3)

    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Restoration / rebuilding of church in last days:

    The old JW favourite -

    (Old Testament | Daniel 2:43 - 44)

    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    Note that that kingdom was set up by God and was not the one set up By Jesus (assuming the Romans aren't the iron and clay). There is at least one church that I know of that 'claims' not to have been set up by man but directly by God.

    Last days would be the most wicked there have ever been:

    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 27:1)

    1 BUT, behold, in the last days, or in the days of the Gentiles—yea, behold all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews, both those who shall come upon this land and those who shall be upon other lands, yea, even upon all the lands of the earth, behold, they will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations—

    People would reject gospel (suggests it wouldn't be simply the bible since this would suggest it was easy to find - maybe refers to listening to modern day prophets - i.e. the way God always warned His people? Amos 3:7):

    (Old Testament | Amos 8:11 - 12)

    11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
    12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

    Next scripture might refer to last days - LDS believe they are predominantly Ephraim (of Joseph) and act as saviours by baptising for dead, sealing work in temples etc.. I'm absolutely willing to accept this is a long shot but I'd be interested to hear when anyone thinks the tribe of Joseph fulfilled this otherwise.
    (Old Testament | Obadiah 1:17 - 21)

    17 ¶ But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
    18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
    19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
    20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
    21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

    Return of Elijah:
    (Old Testament | Malachi 4:5 - 6)

    5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    ..believe this literally happened and since then the interest in Genealogy has grown.

    (Old Testament | Isaiah 2:2 - 3)

    2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
    3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    Utah is a Ute Indian word, meaning the "tops of the mountains". Utah was not the name the Mormon church chose for the state, but was given by the US government. LDS built a temple (LORD's house) there.. Sounds pretty close to the last days to me.

    Gathering of Israel as well as Judah

    (Old Testament | Jeremiah 3:18)

    18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

    Presumably Israel must be gathered as well as Judah (the Jews) - as far as LDS are concerned they are literally gathering Israel.. A strong indicator of end times to the lds.

    Two books of scripture (one from Judah and one from Joseph) to become one at last day?

    (Old Testament | Ezekiel 37:15 - 22)

    15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
    18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
    19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    20 ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    I of course would argue the Book Of Mormon was the stick of Joseph and would therefore suggest that these are indeed the last days.

    (New Testament | Matthew 6:10)

    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Future Kingdom of God to be come - Daniel mentions that it would be in Last Days - only two major religions claim it as far as I know - LDS are one - hmm who is the other?:)

    (New Testament | Matthew 24:14)

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Again the physical preaching work is going ahead at pace - China has missionaries and many previously closed countries are opening up to christian teachings. This has almost totally been completed but was nowhere near completed at any other historical time.

    LDS prophet - All we have yet heard and we have experienced is scarcely a preface to the sermon that is going to be preached. When the testimony of the Elders ceases to be given, and the Lord says to them, “Come home; I will now preach my own sermons to the nations of the earth,” all you now know can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain, thunders and lightnings, and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth, entombing the inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing mighty cities. Famine will spread over the nations and nation will rise up against nation, kingdom against kingdom and states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands; and they will destroy each other, caring not for the blood and lives of their neighbors, of their families, or for their own lives.

    Would be some lost things that would be restored and Jesus would return.

    (New Testament | Acts 3:21)

    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    ( side note: if all prophets have said it where are all the records in the bible - who suppressed the teachings of prophets regarding this last time...?)

    An angel would have the Gospel to preach - i.e. either the Angel would preach it or would have it and give it to someone to preach.

    (New Testament | Revelation 14:6)

    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    LDS figure this happened.

    So to sum up:

    Jews going home.
    Israel also being physically gathered.
    Restoration from Heaven of truths.
    Global rejection of these truths and greater 'wickedness' as defined by the bible.
    Kingdom of God built in last days.

    Things that have not yet happened/completed happening:
    1/ Jerusalem temple rebuilt by Jews.
    2/ Nations of earth gathered to fight at Jerusalem.
    3/ Gospel preached to all earth.
    4/ Great earthquake that would shake whole earth.
    5/ Plagues that would wipe out many.
    6/ Sea being poisoned.
    7/ Total global war.

    Now if it doesn't happen in my lifetime then yippi doo da but these still are the last days according to at least some of the scriptural prophecy as far as I read. Reading the scriptures though - the really nasty stuff happens pretty much all at once and so would be easy to spot when it happened but obviously not before it happened.

    Vague enough for ya?

  • Qcmbr

    ..and just to break it up a bit. Does it change my attitude? Nope, just makes me feel like I need to get my years supply of food in. I figure that if I need the threat of a big stick to change me then I came to earth at the wrong time, I needed to be around when you could get whupped for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    haha Auldsoul. I'll have to call her to let her know her prescence has been requested. lol She's a busy gal.

    Jgnat, hey, I follow you. I guess sane was the only word I could think of at the time.

    AS.... breathe breathe don't turn blue and see the light now ya hear?


  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Ahh, Auld Soul you make me feel wanted and respected a little. After D'Aing in November... after 26 years as a witness.. I thank you...

    I don't really feel like it's my place to say, but can I just give you some scriptures of what he'd be like. ?

    1. He's called son of man...not of God

    2. His quest "to break kings to pieces, to execute judgement among nations, to break to pieces the head one over a populous land" How can a spirit man execute judgement?

    3. Rev.16:14 Jesus will battle with the kings of the earth @ Armaggedon. How can a spirit man battle?

    4. Is. 11 "He must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death."
    How can a spirit talk for all to hear?

    5. Man in linen in Is. 9 is separating people with a secretaries ink horn at his hips.. Again a man...and with a writing tool...Couldn't he be this man? What he does, separates in Math. 25 "separating the sheep from the goats."

    6. Jer. 4:5 Jesus will appear as a signal to the nations, one that people would rally around. "Heart of kings perish and heart of princes, priests driven to astonishment."

    7. He'd come in a cloud, like a thief in the night. His identity would be obscured. He would be not detected by most. What's he stealing..? Kingship?

    8. Math 24:27.."For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be." So his affect would be felt worldwide. 9. Dan. 12:1...."Michael the great prince is standing in behalf of his people" So he stands up for his people.

    These are a few of my thoughts. thanks for letting me post them..

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