Saved by grace or by works? (page 2)

Sunspot

*It was the Jews that relied on salvation by works and the JWs are very influenced by them because they manifest that same mindset. Day after day they must be stressed out to earn salvation. And if they score one serious failure they are back to square one.

Nicely said! We most definetely see this mindset within the JW community as demanded by their tyrannical WTS leaders. The "works" that THEY represent all have to do with attending the meetings to learn how to "properly" speak about, believe in and push the WTS literature. It has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever.

*These works are in the form of good deeds, and a deep appreciation for God and all that he does for us. They are not limited to that but do they also include the preaching, meeting and assembly attendance requirements etc? I think not.

The "works of the WTS" are as I mentioned above. The works that move us to emulate Christ are in showing the same qualities he did. These are showing love for others by giving of ourselves when we see a "need" (food, clothing,shelter including financial and/or emotional support according to our circumstances.) These works can and do range on a scale from the homeless guy on a city sreet corner to the many victims of disasters like the Tsunami and the hurricane victims, etc.

NONE of these works are motivated by or for getting recruits for the WTS, or even ASKING what religion the recipient is before offering assistance, as the selfish and greedy WTS does.

Christian love knows no boundaries and Christian "works" ARE a true witness of our love for Christ.

Annie

A Paduan

it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants. For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son." And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh
the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God............. those who are in the flesh cannot please God

Shazard

In Christianity it is hard to define all "good works" you have to do. Coz according to Bible God gives different gifts, there are different tasks for the members of his flock. Each one is gifted with different talents, skills and Spiritual gifts so eachone can bear fruits of grace according to God's not men's plan! So it is stupid to ask for smith to do same work as president, or ask teacher to do same good works tailor does! God knows better what talents to give. And by your response to these talents your heavenly reward will be calculated. But entrance to heaven itself is for free just by faith!

funkyderek

rootofallevil:

What I am looking for is scriptural proof that will shoot down the first and support the latter.

Don't you already have such proof? The normal process of belief requires obtaining evidence first. Would you accept scriptual proof that supported the first theory?

Personally it doesn't make a difference. I beleive in the "grace" theory.

Now, that's really worrying. You don't actually care about the evidence at all. You've already picked a side.

However, I need the "scriptural evidence" for my friends whom I am trying to help see the lies they have been served all these years!

You've got your belief system which you're quite happy to pluck out of the air. But now you've encountered people who do require evidence and you've none to give them. Shouldn't that tell you something about your beliefs, or at least about the method you used to get them?

cyberdyne systems 101

Thats a very telling observation by funkyderek above. I assumed that as you accepted a teaching, you already had proved this for yourself, but after you ask for the proof! I would recommend looking at Romans first.

jwfacts

There is no proof to 'shoot down' anyones beliefs. No matter what you argue a JW will only listen to reasoning from the Governing Body regardless of whether or not it makes sense. The belief in the GB as God's slave must be proven wrong before a discussion about faith will make any difference.

Forscher

JwFacts makes a pretty good observation there.
The big problem with trying to "shoot down" the beliefs of a Witness is that they accept it as a given that the "Faithful and Discrete Slave", the Governing Body, is appointed by God as his earthly mouthpiece and that their prouncements constitute absolute truth. Therefore, whatever they say a scripture means is what it means, period. That is what you are up against when you try to convince a JW of anything.
It is only when a JW gets out of that mindset that one might be able to get them to examine doctrine critically. That doesn't mean it is a waste of time to talk to them, one never knows what is going on in a JW's mind for sure since they have to keep their inner feelings from the rest of the world.
Throughout his ministry, Jesus condemned the legalism (salvation by works) of the Pharisies. If you check out the sermon on the mount, you'll find some prime examples of his criticisms (Matt. 5-7). If you go to Strong's Concordance and look under the word "hypocrites", you'll find even more. Where the idea that salvation is a gift, through Grace comes from are the writings of Paul. The first two chapters of Ephesians and Romans, chapters 6 through, and including 14, should give you a pretty balanced view of just what Paul taught on the subject. If you read and understand those passages, then you should be able to refute salvation by works. You will also see that what James says about works isn't all that different from Paul, it is just twisted by those who want to teach a "works by salvation" based faith.
I hope you find it helpful.
Forscher

rootofallevil

Funkyderek,

I may not have articulated my question correctly. I am looking for a particular verse(s) that I can show to friends of mine that have already developed some doubts about the WTS.

As for myself, I have had questions about my beliefs as a JW for the last few years and have "lurked" on this forum for at least 6 months before having enough nerve to post. From what I have read both on this forum and through the Bible verses that have been quoted at times, I have concluded to my current beliefs. I have not just "plucked" them out of thin air. I appreciate your concern about my "baseless" conclusions, but let me be the judge of that. All I asked for was an answer to my question. If you can contribute somehow to it, it would be appreciated.

To everyone else that has posted on this topic, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Not just for this particular topic, but for being there many times as I struggled to set things straight in my head. Especially after 30 years of WT brainwashing.

Everyday I look forward to logging on and "associating" with all of you through this forum. Even though I may not post as often as most of you, I read through every single post on a daily basis.

Thank you.

sir82

I was just thinking about theis topic the other day.

I'm curious about the viewpoints of Christians here. Virtually all I've talked to espouse the "saved by grace / faith alone" position.

How does one reconcile this with the crystal-clear (to me, anyways) statements by Jesus himself that more is needed?

For example:

Matthew 24:13: "He that endures to the end will be saved"

Of the sheep who are saved in Matthew 25: "To the extent you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me"

Of the rich man who asked what must be done to get saved: "Sell your belongings, and be my follower"

Etc. etc.

As Narkissos seemed to allude to, if not for Paul, the idea of salvation by faith alone seems to be lacking in the New Testament. Do Paul's words outweigh Jesus'?

Billygoat

Along these lines...

If JWs believe in working for your salvation, from their perspective, what is the point of Jesus sacrifice?

Saved by grace or by works?

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