Which massacres did Jehovah sanction?

by Spectrum 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon


    First I agree that contraception is the first line of defence. Fact; the 'Anglo' Western powers (UK and US) have uptight sex education and high rates of teen pregnancy, and more sexually pragmatic societies have very frank sex education - and teen pregnancy rates a fifth or less of the UK or US. Add in the fact these same counties don't have significantly different ages of first sexual intercourse (the Netherlands is higher than the UK or US), and we can see what needs to be done.

    However, given rape, incest, and conraceptive accident (I have one daughter and one aborted pregnancy from condoms tearing, the aborted pregnancy afer a morning-after pill was also 3% bloody useless), abortion is neccesary. Given stupid/lazy/ignorant/drunk people contraception is also neccesary.

    Or do you think allowing fools who use abortion as contraception to breed is a good idea?

    That group however, is a small one compared to the unlucky. 2-5 percent of women on the pill will conceive each year, given average dilligence.

    If half the population of the US are women, and half are fertile, and half of those are on the pill, those 30 odd million women will get pregnant almost a million times (3%). Abortions run at 1.4 million or so each year in the USA. As many of the other 30 odd million fertile women will be using other forms of contraception, with higher failure rates, statistically speaking most abortions are contraceptive accident or medical. I know this is 'back of a serviette statistics', but in that case it'll be really easy to shoot me down in flames, won't it?

    I've not met anyone yet who has HAD an abortion who will say people use it as contraception (other than abortion due to lack of sex education). Obviously some do, but they distort the argument for the vast majority.

    On a secular basis, if you concede that a pet rat as has more neural tissue than a 16-week fetus (which is true), it is hard to see abortion as barbaric if carried out early (as is the case in a society with decent health systems and liberal attitudes towards sex and sex education). Many animals can spontaneously abort if the environment isn't suitable for giving birth, or they aren't able to support a baby. What's barbaric about giving human females the same choice?

    If we are concerned about lost 'human potential', come back to me when we have extracted the maximum human potential from people who have actually been born. Deprived children for a start.

    You don't have to like it, but you also don't have to have one.

    If you don't like the messy state of abortion law or practice in some countries, ensure those countries educate about contraception and have decent health services. Legislate a medically supportable maximum term for when abortion is allowed for social reasons. That way abortions will be minimised and early.

    On a secular basis, opposal to abortion is just an opinion, not a basis for legislation. On a religious basis, even more so.

    It doesn't logically work any other way.

    As for father's rights.... what rights? Until a child is born the child is the mother's. If a man has sex with someone he gives up rights to those chromosones until they are born. Any other way infringes the woman's rights in an unsupportable fasion, reduces her to breeding stock, slave, chattel.

    If he has sex with someone who will go against his heartfelt wishes, he learns to know his next sexual partner better before risking this happening again. Having children isn't just the woman's responsibility. It is not the sacred duty of woman to bear man's magic seed whenever it happens to blossom in her womb. A man has to take the responsibility to avoid having sex with someone who would do this if he feels any pregnancy he causes must be bought to term by his broodmare.

    Life in prison for murder? How come countries where whole life terms are exceedingly rare (Holland), and murder is normally a seven year streach, have lower murder rates than countries with the death penalty, let alone true life sentences?

    If keeping your everyday muderer locked up for life doesn't make society safer, surely extracting the potential that person has is better than throwing away the key?

    Or is it about revenge rather than justice?

  • MuadDib
    MuadDib

    "As for father's rights.... what rights?"

    Exactly. If Joe Premature wants to keep the child, let him carry it. Maybe he should learn to pull out next time.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Spectrum, that was a very intelligent post. No, the people on the rooftops who are yelling "womens right to choose!" are usually not so interested in being there to give advice to the young girl on her back about to be impregnated by some pimplefaced boy, no.

    Bridget:

    Somehow, I got that you were not in the "rabid" camp

    You`re right, I`m not. I`m not in any camp. And I know that I may have come of a bit to agressive in that first post on this topic, it`s just that when I see selfishness and ignorance on matters of morality hiding under the disguise and flag of political correctness, an almost selfproclaimed moral superiority, pretended intelectualism and a monopoly in truth and the right to speak ones mind, it`s (literally) like holding a red flag up under my nose. I just can`t take it when people come of with a "this is a simple question, womens rights, end of story and all you who disagree are ignorant Bible fanatics"-attitude. It`s like slapping me in the face.

    We've been trying to tame and sanction ourselves and these things between our legs since time began to no avail.
    Lol, yes, I would be the first to testify to that. That`s what got me into fatherhood in the first place. But to me, it was a blessing, not a curse. Of course, I know that has a lot to do with circumstances, it happened when I was 29, I didn`t get any woman "in trouble" until that, but that was just luck. So yes, I understand that it`s hard. And I do see the hypocricy in the pro-life-camp, like you ointed out, they weren`t standing in line outside the orphanage on the way to the abortion clinic. What I find to be even more hypocritical about them, is that they, at least in the US (from what I`ve understood) also become outraged if some (liberal) teacher want`s to hang an condom machine in the school, because they believe this would "ecourage immoral behaviour". If it was up to me, there`s be a condom machine in not just every school, but every classrom. On the other hand, I can never view the killing of a healthy featus as morally acceptable. I realize there are circumstances that make abortion a necessity, such as rape, incest, deformity in the featus, etc, but I would have to (within my view on morality) view these featuses as "casualties of war" . But you`re right, we`ve hijacked the thread enough.
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hellrider

    No, the people on the rooftops who are yelling "womens right to choose!" are usually not so interested in being there to give advice to the young girl on her back about to be impregnated by some pimplefaced boy, no.

    Those same people typically will be the ones lobbying for comprehensive sex education. So I don't agree with the characterisation. They're the one's who have figured as kids will have sex, they may as well do so as safely as possible.

    Those opposing comprehensive sex education will stereotypically be the ones lobbying to end the right to abortion.

    Funny old world, eh?

    But I think we've established the fact that mythical massacres create an impresssion that;

    a/ the OT god was a right bastard

    b/ but as that part of the Bible is as reliable as Grimm's Fairy Tales, who's to say it's got anything to do about god?

    c/ abortion and genocide are different

    ... and that therefore, Jehovah didn't sanction them, either because Jehovah wouldn't do that and that part of the Bible is largely fictional, or that it's all a fairy story and either there is no god, or there is but Jehovah's just another petty tribal deity.

  • Spectrum
    Spectrum

    abaddon,
    " Until a child is born the child is the mother's. If a man has sex with someone he gives up rights to those chromosones until they are born. Any other way infringes the woman's rights in an unsupportable fasion, reduces her to breeding stock, slave, chattel."

    That sounds extreme to me. The mother is the custodian of the 46 chromosomes if you like. If the father wants the baby, the life of the child takes priority over the woman's right to choose death. This doesn't reduce the woman to breeding stock or chattel status but recognises the father's right to have his child. So what if it is in the woman's womb? When women want a child they can't wait to get that sperm inside them and put that womb to good use. When the father wants to keep a child, suddenly, "it's my womb I'll do what I want."

  • Spectrum
    Spectrum

    MuadDib,

    I give way to your superior knowledge. It is true that without Byzantine logistics and supplies they would all have perished before they got anywhere near Antioch and perhaps likewise the Persians going the other way centuries before. But did the Assyrians need such sophisticated logistics given Palestine was relatively near? If Assyria was an empire surely it had a good sizable stock of soldiers?

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Abaddon

    Those opposing comprehensive sex education will stereotypically be the ones lobbying to end the right to abortion.

    I pointed that out in my previous post.

    c/ abortion and genocide are different

    That`s your conclusion, I don`t necessarily agree. I don`t think Forscher does either. It doesn`t exactly mean that I disagree either, but I very much dislike the words used. To claim that "abortion and geoncide are different", that ends the discussion right there (and that`s why I called it your conclusion), because it is the same as saying that a featus is not a living person, with the right to live. What I`m trying to say, is that abortion is not, and should not, be viewed as something that is no more unproblematic than having a wort or a mole removed. It is ethically a greyzone for what is morally acceptable, always has been, and always will. And I`m not talking on a religious basis, I`m not a christian.

    Until a child is born the child is the mother's. If a man has sex with someone he gives up rights to those chromosones until they are born. Any other way infringes the woman's rights in an unsupportable fasion, reduces her to breeding stock, slave, chattel.
    I couldn`t disagree more, with just about everything in that statement.
  • Gregor
    Gregor

    Don't forget Samson. He slew 1000 Philistines with the "ass bone of a jaw" (a Bro. actually said this in a WT Study comment. It took several minutes to get the meeting in order.).

    I think it was David that had his men go out and circumcise a huge number of dead Philistines and bring him the foreskins. He later opened a chain of fast food restaurants specializing in fried clams.

    But seriously, folks...

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    Later, of course, Samson knocked out a couple of supporting columns which caused the collapse of the building at a huge gathering of Philistines. Many deaths and injuries. Samsons estate, the building contractor and the architect were sued for millions.

  • MungoBaobab
    MungoBaobab
    On a secular basis, if you concede that a pet rat as has more neural tissue than a 16-week fetus (which is true), it is hard to see abortion as barbaric if carried out early (as is the case in a society with decent health systems and liberal attitudes towards sex and sex education).

    What many consider barbaric is that if you concede the living entity in question is your son or daughter (which is true), comparing him or her to a vermin worthy of extermination is disconcerting. Wasn't there a Watchtower article comparing worldly people to rats not long ago?

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