DttP:
Nark:Second, such a "secondary application" would still run contrary to the logic of the text which I pointed out earlier (two origins, one destination). Reply: Well, the verse in question (John 10:16) has a oneness amongst two groups, but why do you presume it is as "anointed Christians", Because of Jon 11:51,52? I take that as the dispersed **JEWS** amongst the Greeks. A quick glance at John 7:35 brings this home.
"Then the Jews said among themselves, "Where is this One about to be going that we will not find Him? He is not about to be going to the Dispersion [i.e. the scattered Jews among the Greeks] and to be teaching the Greeks, is He?" (Youngs Literal John 7:35)
Actually, all passages referring to the "great crowd" and the "little flock" can be read this way. There is nothing in the passages that would indicate that John 10:16 is any different (that this exact passage refers to the distinction between actual, physical jews and gentiles), than the other passages. With " a quick glance at John 7:35" - all of the passages making this distinction, could be read this way.
This whole discussion is really about how the JWs apply the term "spiritual Israel", and how the rest of christianity does it. The somewhat bizarre conclusion is that the JWs are operating with this term on two levels, of course, they wouldn`t like to admit that, or even have it pointed out. First of all, all of christianity agrees that if we are to use such a term as "spiritual Israel", it would have to refer to all christians, such as is shown in:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
Romans 9:6-8: 9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” 9:8 This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.
John 17:11-18: "And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy Name, which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one. While I was with them, I kept them in Thy Name, which Thou hast given Me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Thy Word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that Thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the Truth; Thy Word is Truth. As Thou didst send Me into the world, so I have sent them into the world."
...So, would anyone dare to claim that these passages do not refer to all those who have chosen a life in Christ, at all times thruout history, since Christ was here? These people, like all who choose to live a life in Christ, must be counted as the "spiritual Israel", as the Bible is clear on this. This would mean then, that the JWs are operating with two different spiritual Israel...one "spiritual Israel" which are ...all christians (or well, in the WTS-world, all JWs) - and one "spiritual Israel" which refers only to the 144K. And that is just absurd. There is no Biblical support for such a view. DttP, who are Jesus referring to in John 17:1-18? Is he referring to the annointed (144k) - or is he referring to all christians?
