by IP_SEC 64 Replies latest watchtower bible
Lemme give you a Yes-No answer to this question:
You asked:Gentile believers wouldn't appear until the conversion of Cornelius. But at the conversion of Cornelius, his entire household was anointed with the spirit, so they weren't really "Other Sheep" at all, they were really part of the "Little Flock?"
Repky: Yes, of the little flock.
Welcome DttP,
First, I doubt that since 1935 the WT has ever admitted what you do, namely that the "other sheep" of John 10:16 once referred to the Gentile converts who would eventually become ("anointed") Christians, and that its application to another (non-anointed) class is secondary to this first meaning.
Second, such a "secondary application" would still run contrary to the logic of the text which I pointed out earlier (two origins, one destination).
Third, to build such a "secondary application" you have to resort to non-Johannine material. If we follow the Johannine thread on the other hand there is no room for any further splitting, as the destination is confirmed as one. See the echoes of 10:16 (people of diverse origins brought together into one flock, one shepherd) in the next chapters of the Fourth Gospel:
11:51f: He did not say this on his own, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the dispersed children of God.
12:20ff: Now among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip went and told Andrew; then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. (...) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die. "
Hello DttP,
So if I understand correctly, (Again, please correct me if I'm wrong) when Jesus said:
"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Gentiles (By ethnicity) who were to become anointed believers
"those also I must bring and they will listen to my voice," = The door will be opened to them and the spirit poured out upon them.
"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = The "Little flock"
But pretty much at the same moment this happened, the application was spiritualized so that:
"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Spiritual Gentiles who were to become non-anointed believers
"those also I must bring and they will listen to my voice," = The door will be opened (In 1935) to worship with "Christ's brothers."
"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = "One" in unity. Physically, two classes with two destinations
If I've got that right, then I'd pretty much echo Narkissos in that I doubt if the JW's have ever taught this. But even if that weren't the case, I have a hard time seeing any congruency between the "physical" and "spiritual" explanations.
I think this is most apparent right at the fulcrum of the seesaw (i.e. Cornelius) where from the standpoint of the speaker, he's one of the "Other sheep," but from the standpoint of the Invisible Interpreter, he's one of the "Little Flock."
Pixie, this argument has nothing to do with roles of Jews and Gentiles, thats another debate all together.
If the Jews are the flock and Gentiles are the other sheep how could that not damage the "other sheep" teaching of the witnesses. To the witnesses the flock are spiritual jews and the other sheep are not. If I understand what you are saying, all Christians are spiritual Jews.
This decimates the teaching of JWs
I also have trouble understanding how the "when" of the matter could have any bearing. It doesnt matter if the other sheep started being gathered under the one shepherd yesterday. It is the "who" that matters.
<<First, I doubt that since 1935 the WT has ever admitted what you do, namely that the "other sheep" of John 10:16 once referred to the Gentile converts who would eventually become ("anointed") Christians, and that its application to another (non-anointed) class is secondary to this first meaning.>>
Reply:My point is in line with GaryBs' WT quote. I understand this can be confusing, but my point is being missed. I do not believe a Gentile , that is Gentile as in what a Gentile is Pre-Cornelius, is to be anointed. Gentiles become part of Israel AFTER Cornelius, and ONLY because Israel faltered. When Jesus said his words, Israel (fleshly) had not been rejected. I am saying, Post Cornelius, there is a still an Israel/Gentile distinction , it is just not a fleshly distinction. We have a Spiritual Israel that was roughly filled in 1935, and then the other sheep. So the idea of having Gentiles as part of Israel, and Jews part of the Other Sheep is possible.
We are dealing with the time of Jesus' words. At this time he was still making distinction between literal Jews of flesh, who were the recievers of the New Covenent, and Gentiles. Just because Israel BECAME A* spiritual nation does change the fact that Jesus was contrasting Israel and the Gentiles! Just what became Israel changed.
* (not shouting don't know fonts, have not tried to figure them out here)
IP:Pixie, this argument has nothing to do with roles of Jews and Gentiles, thats another debate all together.
If the Jews are the flock and Gentiles are the other sheep how could that not damage the "other sheep" teaching of the witnesses. To the witnesses the flock are spiritual jews and the other sheep are not. If I understand what you are saying, all Christians are spiritual Jews.
This decimates the teaching of JWs>>>>
Reply: It doesn't, when you understand the argument properly. I can understand the confusion. I have discussed this 2-3 times with people (once I believe with Simon the owner here over on Bnet) and it took them a bit to understand too.
I do not believe as you say "All Christians are spiritual Jews" nor have I said as much. Sorry for the confusion.
IP: also have trouble understanding how the "when" of the matter could have any bearing. It doesnt matter if the other sheep started being gathered under the one shepherd yesterday. It is the "who" that matters.
Reply: Since we are dealing with understanding Jesus' words with a spiritual fulfillment the "When" is crucial. Only Post-Cornelius do Jesus' words apply to Spiritual Jews, at the time of his comments he was talking to his people, the recievers of the NC, the Jews . As far the New Covenent goes, Jesus could care less about the Gentiles. Nowhere does he say anything about there "being no distinction between a Jew and Gentile", that was because his message did have a distinction between Jew and Gentile. Functionally. And it still does, just the criteria to what it takes to be a "jew" or "Other sheep" has changed.
Reading thru my posts I believe I have written enough for the point to be understood. I understand the difficulty and will be as patient as I can be.
Later.
TD"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Gentiles (By ethnicity) who were to become anointed believers
Reply: No, my contention is that they do not become anointed Christians. Some Gentiles did only to reach the number of Israel, but they are counted as Israel.
TD:"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = The "Little flock
Reply: No, Israel is alone the Little flock. Gentiles had to be counted as Israel until the spiritual nation of Kings/priests was filled, after that moment the gathering of the other sheep takes place.
TD:But pretty much at the same moment this happened, the application was spiritualized so that:
"And I have other sheep which are not of this fold;" --Other sheep = Spiritual Gentiles who were to become non-anointed believers
Reply: Well, not pretty much at the same moment. After MAtthew 21:43.
TD:"and they will become one flock, one shepherd." --One flock = "One" in unity. Physically, two classes with two destinations
Reply: Yes, I am saying that. I am saying Jews had a different function, a priestly function, which was to rule with Christ over the World in General.
If I've got that right, then I'd pretty much echo Narkissos in that I doubt if the JW's have ever taught this. But even if that weren't the case, I have a hard time seeing any congruency between the "physical" and "spiritual" explanations.
REply: Why not? And I read thru GaryBs Wt reference, it is in-line with what I am saying.
I think this is most apparent right at the fulcrum of the seesaw (i.e. Cornelius) where from the standpoint of the speaker, he's one of the "Other sheep," but from the standpoint of the Invisible Interpreter, he's one of the "Little Flock." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reply: Corneilus according to Jesus' message was of the Other sheep, not anointed. Cornuelis according to Post Israel's failure and Pauls inclusion, is allowed to be counted as Israel. Again, I re-iterate, Jesus says nothing about including Gentiles in with Israel. Paul does, becasue of the events that happened.
Thanks guys.
Since we are dealing with understanding Jesus' words with a spiritual fulfillment the "When" is crucial.
Can you give a reason for needing a spiritual fulfillment for these words other than to make them fit a presuposition.
I dont feel the need to inject a dual understanding.
Little Flock=Jew
Other Sheep=Gentile
One flock=Spiritual Jews
Chapter 10 describes the Pharisees as being thieves, plunderers, strangers, and hired men over the flock. The Pharisees never had that status over spiritual jews, only literal jews. The pharisees never had that status over the other sheep, only literal jews.
Making 10:1-15 about spiritual jews voids and 16 about spiritual gentiles voids everything jesus said about the Pharisees since the Pharisees have never been hired men over them. Creating a literal and figurative interpretation is a long stretch, no its a square peg in a round hole.
| Making 10:1-15 about spiritual jews voids and 16 about spiritual gentiles voids everything jesus said about the Pharisees since the Pharisees have never been hired men over them. Creating a literal and figurative interpretation is a long stretch, no its a square peg in a round hole. | |
| Reply: Well since I am stating Jesus was talking of Literal Jews, I fail to see your objection. Maybe it will help you if you view it as simply "Israel" and "Non Israel". Then understand what hapened to Israel later in Pauls discourses. We now interpret it in light of what happened, as being "Spiritual Israel". They fulfilled Jesus words. . | |
| Making 10:1-15 about spiritual jews voids and 16 about spiritual gentiles voids everything jesus said about the Pharisees since the Pharisees have never been hired men over them. Creating a literal and figurative interpretation is a long stretch, no its a square peg in a round hole. | |
| . | |
Well, here's my 2 cents...I think the "other sheep which are not of this fold" are the people who are not Christians in the right sense or not even Christians at all, (buddists, atheists, zen taoists, etc.) but have the pure heart and the right attitude toward the new world. While I think the sheep he is talking to, are the Christians, jew or gentile.
